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Old 05-17-2010, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 859,763 times
Reputation: 134

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Mystic you said:

The whole basis for your "state of mind" and behavior is obedience to a tyrant God who hates, punishes, is jealous and vengeful, etc. Of course you claim to do this out of love . . . but as long as there is an ounce of fear and obedience in your motivations (especially for others' fates under this God's wrath). . . that love is corrupted and impure.



God said He hates sin. God said He punishes in a lake of fire. God said He is jealous and vengeful. You call God a TYRANT!! I think I would believe God, not the almighty UR!! How can URers say that their loves conquers all, and in the same breath state that no one can cease from sin?? If that was the case then their love does NOT conquer all!! Does love conquer all or not???


In Matthew 10:28 Jesus Himself said to FEAR GOD!! Why Fear God?? Because of the reasons GOD said that I listed above. The reason pure love casts out all fear is because "if ye love me keep my commandments". No reason to fear if you have repented and keep His commandments. You totally miss the concept of these verses!! You cannot twist the word of God to contradict itself and then say it is all about love!! Love for whom?? The God whos words you have mangled?? I do not understand this logic!! Please indulge me!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE

Last edited by ALMOST2L8; 05-17-2010 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,245,668 times
Reputation: 837
Ilene...

...disingenuous love...followed by a wink....?...I am sorry, I do not believe you. You would have done better by just posting your opinion, as I asked, and left it at that.

I stand by each and every post I have ever posted. They speak the truth...not my problem if you cannot handle the truth...anymore. I've never, ever proclaimed that I was sinless...back it up with proof.

Just recently a thread was bumped back up into reality...I seem to recall a sad face that it had come back up to bite the one that posted it...painful. It would make me sad too...it did make me sad too.



See the advertisement above this post...? The Deadly Deceptions of Modern Christianity...www.freetruth.info...? Go there and read!!!!!
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:09 PM
 
37,615 posts, read 25,312,999 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...That is YOUR mis-interpretaion Mystic.

However...my interpretation of the true nature of God IS based solely upon what the Scriptures (God's holy word) tell me....Obedience to a just and fair God Who Himself states that He IS jealous!...and Who DOES tell us that "vengence" is HIS!..and Who states that He WILL punish those who do not live their lives according to HIS will!...Who states HIMSELF that He hates worker's of iniquity<<<>>>sin!
And THIS is YOUR misinterpretation using the veil of misunderstanding of God produced by ignorant primitives recording the inspirations of God as best they could in their ignorance and savagery. It provides the wrong CONTEXT for interpreting the actions of God because it presents a completely erroneous picture of God as possessing ALL the human emotional weaknesses we are plagued by. God has NONE of those human weaknesses, Verna. But God would have been completely incomprehensible to our ancestors if He had not been presented in terms they could understand at their stage of development.(Schoolmaster) Christ came to change that and God has "written in our hearts" all that we need to know. The Holy Spirit leads us to the truth (Jesus) when we use the "mind of Christ" to understand God . . . not the words "written in ink."
2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Quote:
You just TOTALLY ignore the word of God Mystic...and make your own gospel that is absolutely opposite of what God says and MEANS!...Let God's word be true, and every man a liar.
You know I do not ignore the word of God, Verna . . . the living Word of God is Jesus and He is with us at this very moment as the Holy Spirit. I know in my heart that you would see a completely different God when you look through the prism of Jesus' example and His loving nature and mind . . . than you do when you read the OT and the words "written in ink" in the NT. The image of God you have been taught to believe in is the false image of a God filled with human weaknesses . . . NOT the God of pure love Jesus came to reveal to us.
Quote:
...again you mis-interpret the meaning of this verse as well Mystic.

The only fear I have is reverential fear Mystic...a Godly fear of offending Him...but the fear I have comes from being boldly confident in that I know my love is being perfected...I do not anticipate punishment...my conscience is clear. Perfect love is incompatible with such a self-punishing fear.
You should have NO fear whatsoever, Verna . . . reverential or not. That was primitive motivation for our savage ancestors (in the beginning) . . . not for us 2000+ years later.
Quote:
..........the gospel according to Mystic....but not THE gospel I so love.
I wish it was Jesus and NOT the written word that you so loved, Verna. (I know you love Jesus . . . but your priorities are all messed up and focused on the written word . . . NOT the living Word of God (Jesus) within and in your heart.)
Quote:
Thank you for responding though Mystic.

In Christ's love,
Verna.
You are welcome, my sister. God bless you and all you care about in Christ's love. Your brother in Christ, Mystic
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 859,763 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Ilene...

...disingenuous love...followed by a wink....?...I am sorry, I do not believe you. You would have done better by just posting your opinion, as I asked, and left it at that.

I stand by each and every post I have ever posted. They speak the truth...not my problem if you cannot handle the truth...anymore. I've never, ever proclaimed that I was sinless...back it up with proof.

Just recently a thread was bumped back up into reality...I seem to recall a sad face that it had come back up to bite the one that posted it...painful. It would make me sad too...it did make me sad too.



See the advertisement above this post...? The Deadly Deceptions of Modern Christianity...www.freetruth.info...? Go there and read!!!!!
Awsome link Verna!!

GOD BLESS YOUR SWEET HEART SISTER!!!
DALE
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,763,217 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Ilene...

...disingenuous love...followed by a wink....?...I am sorry, I do not believe you. You would have done better by just posting your opinion, as I asked, and left it at that.

I stand by each and every post I have ever posted. They speak the truth...not my problem if you cannot handle the truth...anymore. I've never, ever proclaimed that I was sinless...back it up with proof.

Just recently a thread was bumped back up into reality...I seem to recall a sad face that it had come back up to bite the one that posted it...painful. It would make me sad too...it did make me sad too.



See the advertisement above this post...? The Deadly Deceptions of Modern Christianity...www.freetruth.info...? Go there and read!!!!!
You wanted the truth and you got it. You should have never started a thread wanting to know why people think you're a legalist if you can't handle the truth. I'm really surprised and seriously disappointed at your disdain and hatred towards me. But, there's your fruit. There is nothing disingenuous about me.....maybe a look in the mirror is in order. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ but I guess you don't unless they agree with you. Really sad and a huge disservice to the message of Christ.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:49 PM
 
37,615 posts, read 25,312,999 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Mystic you said:

The whole basis for your "state of mind" and behavior is obedience to a tyrant God who hates, punishes, is jealous and vengeful, etc. Of course you claim to do this out of love . . . but as long as there is an ounce of fear and obedience in your motivations (especially for others' fates under this God's wrath). . . that love is corrupted and impure.

God said He hates sin. God said He punishes in a lake of fire. God said He is jealous and vengeful. You call God a TYRANT!! I think I would believe God, not the almighty UR!! How can URers say that their loves conquers all, and in the same breath state that no one can cease from sin?? If that was the case then their love does NOT conquer all!! Does love conquer all or not???
God's love conquers all . . . our human love not so much . . . but we have Jesus on our side.
Quote:
In Matthew 10:28 Jesus Himself said to FEAR GOD!! Why Fear God?? Because of the reasons GOD said that I listed above. The reason pure love casts out all fear is because "if ye love me keep my commandments". No reason to fear if you have repented and keep His commandments. You totally miss the concept of these verses!!
You misunderstand Matt 10:28. I have explained this several times elsewhere . . . but the point being that God is not mentioned and there are in fact NO personal pronouns in that verse. It is a "THAT" (impersonal) referring to the "state of mind" that results in those "fates."
Quote:
You cannot twist the word of God to contradict itself and then say it is all about love!! Love for whom?? The God whos words you have mangled?? I do not understand this logic!! Please indulge me!!
I will respond to these pleas, brother . . . using Jesus' favorite device . . . parable/metaphor.

Envision being a medical doctor at some primitive outpost of humanity. You have in your possession the serums and knowledge of hygiene that the primitives need to stop the disastrous effects of a plague. You must somehow convince them to use the serum and follow your instructions about changing their hygiene habits to halt the spread of the disease. Short of providing them with 13 or more years of twentieth century education, what can you do?

Obviously, your ministry must conform to their level of understanding and cultural mores. Absolution of "sins," and casting out "devils," are the techniques of ministry that might apply. Besides when you think about it, poor hygiene and "sinful behavior" are not that inconsistent, and an invading bacteria or virus is not that different from an "inhabiting devil" in its unseen character and overall deleterious effect on the person so "inhabited."

The early apostles were basically primitives dealing with primitives. They could not use very exotic concepts (milk not solid food). However, the "apostles" that were to follow were supposed to refine their knowledge and improve on the earlier primitive concepts as the knowledge of humankind advanced. In essence, they were to be the "spiritual doctors" helping to reduce the incidence of spiritual miscarriage and increase the number of spiritual rebirths.

But . . . unlike our modern medical doctors, these "spiritual doctors" did NOT progress AT ALL. If our medical doctors had progressed at the same rate as the "spiritual doctors" . . . they would still be trying to "remove evil spirits," hanging garlic and wolfsbane to "protect against devils," and similar idiocy. A failure to understand this basic feature of Christian scripture is a prime cause of the ridiculous distortions we have today.

God Bless, brother . . Be well, Mystic.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Katjon you said:

Today I visited with people and helped with a charity. Tomorrow I will also impact people's lives. Loving others is more important than faith and hope....



Then you said:

1 Cor. 13:1-8;13
1If I speak in the language of men and of prophets, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails....
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I say:
Which is it? You love everyone so much that you do not boast, or you boast because you love just oh so much??? I do not understand your teaching. Boast or not boast. You must be PROUD of your WORKS to BOAST about it!!


[+] Rate this post positively
Perhaps I left out what I do every weekend... so you think it was a boast. My point was not to elevate my behavior but to contrast that with what I assume is the standard way of observing the sabbath. From Jesus' perspective (who healed the sick on the sabbath) did I do anything to break the sabbath? IMO there is not a set way to observe the sabbath and keep it holy. I try to impact people's lives (in a positive way, I should have clarified!) everyday because that is how good will is spread. I want a world full of good will toward men (and women LOL) and someone has to start it. I believe Jesus started it and we should emulate what he did. Don't you?

Was it Jesus trying to point out the people's lack of sabbath observation or was it the legalist/pharisee who decided they were the judge of how the sabbath was observed. The sabbath observation changed drastically once the temple was gone... Don't you think?

I don't see how anyone in this day and age would look another human being in the face who is struggling paycheck to paycheck and tell them they are doomed or bad for working on the sabbath. Why would you burden people like that?

It reminds me of what Jesus said in Luke 11:46-
"Yes," said Jesus, "what sorrow also awaits you experts in religious law! For you crush people with unbearable religious demands, and you never lift a finger to ease the burden."

My friend is a single mother working 2 jobs to support her son. She has to work whenever she can. She rejoices (literally) when she and her son can attend church or have one full day to enjoy each other. Who are we to tell her that she must quit her jobs to observe the sabbath? Seems presumptuous to me, and rude, and unloving.

I don't mind if you observe your holy days your way... I mind being called a sinner and destined to burn eternally if I don't agree with your holy days.

Col. 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Helping your fellow man on the sabbath is a GOOD thing to do! The sabbath was made for man's benefit... not God's!

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

My conscience is clean regarding the sabbath keeping. If yours (and Verna's) is clean regarding the sabbath keeping then great!
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Mystic you said:

The whole basis for your "state of mind" and behavior is obedience to a tyrant God who hates, punishes, is jealous and vengeful, etc. Of course you claim to do this out of love . . . but as long as there is an ounce of fear and obedience in your motivations (especially for others' fates under this God's wrath). . . that love is corrupted and impure.



God said He hates sin. God said He punishes in a lake of fire. God said He is jealous and vengeful. You call God a TYRANT!!


Where is it said God punishes people in a lake of fire? Most people will agree that all sin was paid for... but yet what is punished (if that is the case) in the lake of fire?

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Old 05-17-2010, 06:04 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,210,108 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
God's love conquers all . . . our human love not so much . . . but we have Jesus on our side. You misunderstand Matt 10:28. I have explained this several times elsewhere . . . but the point being that God is not mentioned and there are in fact NO personal pronouns in that verse. It is a "THAT" (impersonal) referring to the "state of mind" that results in those "fates."I will respond to these pleas, brother . . . using Jesus' favorite device . . . parable/metaphor.

Envision being a medical doctor at some primitive outpost of humanity. You have in your possession the serums and knowledge of hygiene that the primitives need to stop the disastrous effects of a plague. You must somehow convince them to use the serum and follow your instructions about changing their hygiene habits to halt the spread of the disease. Short of providing them with 13 or more years of twentieth century education, what can you do?

Obviously, your ministry must conform to their level of understanding and cultural mores. Absolution of "sins," and casting out "devils," are the techniques of ministry that might apply. Besides when you think about it, poor hygiene and "sinful behavior" are not that inconsistent, and an invading bacteria or virus is not that different from an "inhabiting devil" in its unseen character and overall deleterious effect on the person so "inhabited."

The early apostles were basically primitives dealing with primitives. They could not use very exotic concepts (milk not solid food). However, the "apostles" that were to follow were supposed to refine their knowledge and improve on the earlier primitive concepts as the knowledge of humankind advanced. In essence, they were to be the "spiritual doctors" helping to reduce the incidence of spiritual miscarriage and increase the number of spiritual rebirths.

But . . . unlike our modern medical doctors, these "spiritual doctors" did NOT progress AT ALL. If our medical doctors had progressed at the same rate as the "spiritual doctors" . . . they would still be trying to "remove evil spirits," hanging garlic and wolfsbane to "protect against devils," and similar idiocy. A failure to understand this basic feature of Christian scripture is a prime cause of the ridiculous distortions we have today.

God Bless, brother . . Be well, Mystic.
You wrote ...


Quote:
but the point being that God is not mentioned and there are in fact NO personal pronouns in that verse. It is a "THAT" (impersonal) referring to the "state of mind" that results in those "fates."I will respond to these pleas, brother . . . using Jesus' favorite device . . . parable/metaphor.
Interesting, it appears the reason why the article "Ho" can be translated as "they" and "him" in this verse is because of the use of the conjunction "de"("but") twice within the sentence. I am not sure if it is necessary to translate "ho" in this verse as "them" and "him", but it appears to be applicable according to the argument below ...

Quote:
The article(Greek - HO) is not a true pronoun in Koine Greek, even though it derived from the demonstrative. But in many instances it can function semantically in the place of a pronoun.

1. Personal Pronoun [he, she, it]
  • The article is often used in the place of a third person personal pronoun in the nominative case. It is only used in this way with the men...de construction or with de alone (Thus, o men ... o de or simply o de)
    John 4:32 o de eipen autoiV
    • But he said to them
2. Relative Pronoun [who, which]
  • Sometimes the article is equivalent to a relative pronoun in force. This is especially true when it is repeated after a noun before a phrase (e.g., a gen. phrase).
    1Cor 1:18 o logoV gar o tou staurou
    • the word that is of the cross
    Luke 7:32 omoioi eisin paidioiV toiV en agora kaqhmenoiV/DT>
    • They are like children who [are] sitting in the marketplace.
3. Possessive Pronoun [his, her]
  • The article is sometimes used in contexts in which possession is implied. The article itself does not involve possession, but this notion can be inferred from the presence of the article alone in certain contexts.
    Eph 5:25 oi andreV agapate taV gunaikaV
    • Husbands, love your wives.
From http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...grkol-3-R.html
What do you think about this Mystic?

Though "DE" is used twice in this sentence, it does not immediately follow the article "HO", as is show above in the argument i have given, so cannot say for certain even if it is even grammatical correct to translate "HO" as "they" and "him" ... I am not certain if it is necessary for "DE" to immediately follow "HO" in order for this to be proper or not, but every translation does translate "HO" as "they" and "him", and none translates "HO" is "that" in this sentence. I wish there was a Koine Greek professor here that could elaborate on it ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-17-2010 at 06:17 PM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 859,763 times
Reputation: 134
Katjon in red:

I believe Jesus started it and we should emulate what he did. Don't you?

Yes I do, and Jesus lived a sinless life so emulate on!!

I don't mind if you observe your holy days your way... I mind being called a sinner and destined to burn eternally if I don't agree with your holy days.

I do not believe in ET. I've stated this many times. MY HOLY DAY?? I did not create anything!! Why is it mine?? I thought it was God's!! Refer to the creation in Genesis. I take it you only have six days in your week. Because the seventh day was created by God for HIS sabbath to be kept holy. You have created a new week. I have created nothing.


Helping your fellow man on the sabbath is a GOOD thing to do! The sabbath was made for man's benefit... not God's!

Another contradiction!! Again, you cannot say all things were created for Gods pleasure and at the same time say the sabbath was not for God!! It is for the both of us!! Our relationship with our creator. Accept it or refuse it, but don't twist God's word into YOUR contradictions!!

It reminds me of what Jesus said in Luke 11:46-
"Yes," said Jesus, "what sorrow also awaits you experts in religious law! For you crush people with unbearable religious demands, and you never lift a finger to ease the burden."

I did not know that a day of prayer and knowledge of our creator was an unbearable religious demand!!

My friend is a single mother working 2 jobs to support her son. She has to work whenever she can. She rejoices (literally) when she and her son can attend church or have one full day to enjoy each other. Who are we to tell her that she must quit her jobs to observe the sabbath? Seems presumptuous to me, and rude, and unloving.

I used to think like you!! God will understand that I need money. God knows I need to support my family.

That is just the problem!! There is nore more faith in God!! Your friend obviously does not think that God will provide her family what it needs (not what it wants)!! Does your friend have internet, or cable, or a cell phone, perhaps 2 or 3 televisions. I do not know but, these are not things needed to support a child!! There is a difference between wants and needs, and to turn your foot from His holy day for your own selfish wants (cable, internet, cell phones, or tv's) is just that........ selfish!! There is also no need for anyone to quit a job for the sabbath:

News, Baptist sues Lowe's over working on Sundays.


There are laws that say we have a freedom to keep our sabbath day holy. Now there is no excuse.

Do I have wants?? Yes, but if need be I would rid myself of all these selfish things for my children!! As well as for the God that I love!!!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
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