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Personally, the "10" are not for us as they were given to the Jews - and we are not Jewish.
However, there is nothing wrong with Verna trying to live by them as long as she knows the proper role of the law in relation to the believer. The law does not and can not save anyone. Why? Because we have all broken the law - and if you break one, you are guilty of them all (James 2:10).
Also, the fact that we came into this world depraved had nothing to do with the law - it was because of Adam. And the fact that some are saved due to one's relationship w/ Christ is not because of adhering to the law - it is through faith and the reception of the Holy Spirit.
But the law does come from God. So it is a dependable standard to try and live by - but beware that you put to much of a dependence on the law and end up frustrated like Paul in Romans 7.
you could answer this. All these that could be answered, but aren't, is the reason for this thread...I'd truly like to know how you (in general) can judge me as you (in general) do?
Hmmm... I think I was just agreeing with you that the label 'legalist' fits (in general)
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I guess what I'm reaching for kat, is why?...why you and some others hold this unfounded opinion of me, as well as anyone else that professes to keep the ten commandments (including the Sabbath), as being "legalist's"...?...and not simply someone who reads Scripture and believes it to say (and it does) that those who love their Father in heaven will keep His commandments (including the Sabbath)...simply loves their Father so much, that they do keep His commandments (including the Sabbath)...?
Unfounded? Legalism, to me, is telling others they must conform to your holy days. I have my own holy days.. who are you to tell me what I should do? I often wonder how you follow this sabbath? Is it on saturday or sunday? Can you buy groceries? Visit a sick loved one with flowers you purchased from someone working on the sabbath? Should the nurse that takes care of your sick loved also a terrible sinner? And if so, shouldn't you try to help the nurse keep the sabbath by refraining from being ill on that day as well? What about police officers? Have you ever called 911 on the sabbath? Don't you consider that to be helping another person break the sabbath? Or do you refuse help from someone working on the sabbath?
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What baffles me is this...it doesn't matter who it is, on this forum, who professes to keep the ten commandments (including the Sabbath), they are all accused of being a "legalist" simply because they do so...as far as I can see, in having read the posts on this forum now for a year and a half...not one person who professes to keep the ten commandments, including the 4th one (the Sabbath), is "judged" by anyone to be doing so simply because they love God. So...does this mean that everyone's opinion is this: That anyone who keeps the commandments (including the Sabbath) is a "legalist"...?...It's just automatic...?...stating: "Your a legalist!, and a hater of people!...and you should be shut up!...and banned from telling people they should keep the Ten Commandments of God (including the Sabbath)!".....?
I didn't say such things.... I'm not sure why you are so sensitive to this issue....
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....when, in all actuality...the very reason I (and I know the other commandment keeper's as well) come here in an endeavor to capture your hearts and endure some very real ill-treatment, because I do love you and care very deeply for the state of your souls.
And you believe that our souls will suffer for our lack of abstaining on the sabbath? I have 4 kids... We have events (softball games, Taekwondo, football games) on saturday and sundays we try to reserve for visiting Grandpa who is on his 4th Cancer treatment plan. Although this sunday I helped with a local charity golf event... So you see, we live our lives as we choose and you think God will strike me down for not keeping the sabbath? Why don't you elaborate on what is and is not permitted on the sabbath....
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It isn't me I am thinking about as I endlessly strive to give you (in general) the truth as I believe the Scriptures teach it...the "rewards" I receive from man for doing so are pretty tough to bear at times....no...I take that back...they are pretty tough to bear all the time...it is a thankless message...very much an "unappreciated" message...unreceived...and it breaks my heart.......so why do I keep on keeping on...? Because I cannot stop...God will not allow me to stop...I have a truth, in my heart...and I must share it.
Ok... but then again Paul stated not to let others judge your holy days. Didn't he? That is all I am doing. It doesn't bother my conscience at all to live without the sabbath... Are you telling me it should?
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How can anyone label someone who they do not know...who they do not observe in what manner they are living their lives...who cannot possibly look inside their heart to see what their motivation truly is, a "legalist"...? You (in general) don't know me....obviously. And you (in general) sayI judge...?
Like I said before... I simply agreed to the label you presented. It seems to fit. How do you know I don't keep the sabbath? How do you know what God has convicted me of? How do you know to judge me as a Non-sabbath keeper and therefore a murderer as well?
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You are very, very mistaken in your understanding about this kat. What God has commanded, only God can set aside. You could search forever and not find a single verse that says God abolished the 4th commandment.
UM... okay... I think I will defer to Christ on this one.
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Paul NEVER taught a new doctrine that cancelled the 4th commandment, to keep the Sabbath holy unto God. If he did, this would have started a firestorm of controversy between the Jew and Gentile Christians over Sabbath-keeping that would have split them all in two!...and we would be reading now Paul answering the objections continuously throughout his epistles!
Um... it did cause controversy... you can see it unfold in Acts. The gentiles were not obligated to keep the sabbath because it was a jewish holy day. But then again... perhaps you just want to keep the sabbath.. IDK
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Stop for a moment...what do you think the Jews would have done to Paul had he revoked the Sabbath?...when they absolutely fought to keep the circumcision...and wanted to circumcise the Gentiles as well...?...we do not hear of any such thing being proposed...
What version of the bible are you reading? Paul states in Romans and Hebrews (I believe) that what makes a jew is not physical circumcision but circumcision of the heart.
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But you do not keep the 4th one...the Sabbath...you do not keep it holy unto God...and God's word states that if you break one you've broken them all...but you don't believe that there is anything more you need do...because, according to you...Christ is the Mediator...and he'll take care of it....and that is very sad.
Christ IS the Mediator of the new covenant and the new covenant is about loving one another, not rules and regulations.
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"...but didn't I cast out devil's in Your Name?...didn't I lay hands on and heal the sick in Your Name?"...and He said, "Away from me, I NEVER knew you...you worker of iniquity!" God does hate worker's of iniquity.<<<His words, not mine.
iniquity = sin...sin = transgression of the law...the law = the TEN commandments...if you do not keep the TEN commandments, you are living in sin. "...anyone who says they know the LORD, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him..." <<<God's words, not mine.
What is love that has not faith or hope in it?
1 Cor. 13:1-8;13 1If I speak in the language of men and of prophets, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.... 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
...well...the very Book of the Bible that this person eluded to (which is Romans), in his thread IS the very Book that deals with this specific topic.
I'm a bit tired of being accused of being a "legalist" by some, because I keep the ten commandments!
So...tell me, please...why do you (whoever does) think I am a legalist?...and not someone who obeys out of love...?
or...
If you don't think I am a "legalist", but someone who does, in fact, keep the commandments out of love for my Father...what do you understand, about how I live, that causes you to understand what kind of follower of Christ I am?
Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
Well I believe there are 600+ commandments in the bible...Ot specifically... but who's counting.. right?
613 + 1 (Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil) = 614!
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
I think you could clarify whether you believe that the commandments can be fulfilled by loving one another or not. OR if you just have to fulfill the two... love god and one another...
And Jesus said: "If you love me, keep my commandments"!
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
The problem is that if that were the criteria... no one would be saved.. that is why the disciples asked "who then can be saved..." to which the Lord answered... with man it is impossible but with God anything is possible...
So do you believe God can save all men or just a few?
God can save all men and God has made the way that all men can be saved, unfortunately not all me will accept God's way. They will reject God regardless of his perfect gift, his Son Jesus Christ. These people will condemn their own selves to hell because they have rejected the Son.
The answer you seek is simple, Verna . . . it is the intent and purpose based on your interpretation of the true nature of God that makes commandment keepers legalists. The whole basis for your "state of mind" and behavior is obedience to a tyrant God who hates, punishes, is jealous and vengeful, etc.
...That is YOUR mis-interpretaion Mystic.
However...my interpretation of the true nature of God IS based solely upon what the Scriptures (God's holy word) tell me....Obedience to a just and fair God Who Himself states that He IS jealous!...and Who DOES tell us that "vengence" is HIS!..and Who states that He WILL punish those who do not live their lives according to HIS will!...Who states HIMSELF that He hates worker's of iniquity<<<>>>sin!
You just TOTALLY ignore the word of God Mystic...and make your own gospel that is absolutely opposite of what God says and MEANS!...Let God's word be true, and every man a liar.
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Originally Posted by Mystic
Of course you claim to do this out of love . . . but as long as there is an ounce of fear and obedience in your motivations (especially for others' fates under this God's wrath). . . that love is corrupted and impure. Pure love casts out ALL fear.
...again you mis-interpret the meaning of this verse as well Mystic.
The only fear I have is reverential fear Mystic...a Godly fear of offending Him...but the fear I have comes from being boldly confident in that I know my love is being perfected...I do not anticipate punishment...my conscience is clear. Perfect love is incompatible with such a self-punishing fear.
Perhaps it is this "self-punishing" fear that prevents so many from receiving the truth...and instead, do everything possible to twist it to make it more palatable...trying to justify living a life without keeping the commandments of God. Fear of God gives way to love...true love.
A natural man has neither fear nor love.
One that is awakened...fear without love.
A babe in Christ...love and fear.
A father in Christ...love without fear.
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Originally Posted by Mystic
God is pure love and is NOT a commanding tyrant who wants us to toe the line for His sake. ALL the "laws" and schoolmaster stuff has been to train and equip us to love and behave with love . . . not to make Him happy by our obedience to specific "laws" to avoid His wrath.
..........the gospel according to Mystic....but not THE gospel I so love.
Thank you for responding though Mystic.
In Christ's love,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-17-2010 at 11:18 AM..
Personally, the "10" are not for us as they were given to the Jews - and we are not Jewish.
If a true, believing Gentile...then considered by God to be "His people"..."spiritual Israel."...grafted in with true, believing Jews.
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
However, there is nothing wrong with Verna trying to live by them as long as she knows the proper role of the law in relation to the believer.
Thank you...and I do...
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
The law does not and can not save anyone.
Correct...complete faith and trust in God, and being found holy and without blemish...blameless, is what will seal our salvation...on The Day.
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
Why? Because we have all broken the law - and if you break one, you are guilty of them all (James 2:10).
Well...this has nothing to do with the above...in context...respectively.
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
Also, the fact that we came into this world depraved had nothing to do with the law - it was because of Adam. And the fact that some are saved due to one's relationship w/ Christ is not because of adhering to the law - it is through faith and the reception of the Holy Spirit.
...this "faith" and "reception of the Holy Spirit" IS what causes a believer to adhere to God's commandments...this IS where the power to do so comes from.
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
But the law does come from God. So it is a dependable standard to try and live by -
Amen...and we can...God says we can. What kind of God would require of His children something He knew they could not successfuly achieve...? Not our God.
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Originally Posted by DRob4jc
but beware that you put to much of a dependence on the law and end up frustrated like Paul in Romans 7.
Could you be more specific please?
Thank you DRob4jc...I appreciate your response very much.
And the list goes on......it's your belief that you are sinless, it's your belief that one must be absolutely perfect to go to heaven, it's, it's.....everything.
Today I visited with people and helped with a charity. Tomorrow I will also impact people's lives. Loving others is more important than faith and hope....
Then you said:
1 Cor. 13:1-8;13 1If I speak in the language of men and of prophets, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.... 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I say:
Which is it? You love everyone so much that you do not boast, or you boast because you love just oh so much??? I do not understand your teaching. Boast or not boast. You must be PROUD of your WORKS to BOAST about it!!
And the list goes on......it's your belief that you are sinless, it's your belief that one must be absolutely perfect to go to heaven, it's, it's.....everything.
She never said sinless, but rather full of sin that she has repented for and turned and walked away from.
How can one be sinless and walk away from sin??? If one is sinless there is nothing to walk away from!!
I don't think she said perfect, but rather forgiven for her sins! How can you say to someone you just stole money from "Please forgive me", meanwhile reaching in their purse only to do it again!! Makes no sense!!
You decieve only yourself!! God will not be mocked!!
Paul, when focused on the law, threw his hands up in frustration when he could not follow the law. His focus was his performance in accordance with the law and not grace and Christ.
So I was only stating that since you are free to follow the "10" as you desire, be sure not to make the "10" and the your performance the judge of who you really are.
Hopefully that makes sense.
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