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Old 05-16-2010, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
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Someone on another thread posted this:

Quote:
"...Some of the legalists on this forum think that if you die with one unconfessed sin that you will go to hell.......
Quote:

To think that you must avoid sin to avoid hell is legalism.

And there is a difference between a legalist and someone who obeys out of love."
...well...the very Book of the Bible that this person eluded to (which is Romans), in his thread IS the very Book that deals with this specific topic.

I'm a bit tired of being accused of being a "legalist" by some, because I keep the ten commandments!

So...tell me, please...why do you (whoever does) think I am a legalist?...and not someone who obeys out of love...?

or...

If you don't think I am a "legalist", but someone who does, in fact, keep the commandments out of love for my Father...what do you understand, about how I live, that causes you to understand what kind of follower of Christ I am?
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,430,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Someone on another thread posted this:



...well...the very Book of the Bible that this person eluded to (which is Romans), in his thread IS the very Book that deals with this specific topic.

I'm a bit tired of being accused of being a "legalist" by some, because I keep the ten commandments!

So...tell me, please...why do you (whoever does) think I am a legalist?...and not someone who obeys out of love...?

or...

If you don't think I am a "legalist", but someone who does, in fact, keep the commandments out of love for my Father...what do you understand, about how I live, that causes you to understand what kind of follower of Christ I am?
Well I believe there are 600+ commandments in the bible...Ot specifically... but who's counting.. right?

I think you could clarify whether you believe that the commandments can be fulfilled by loving one another or not. OR if you just have to fulfill the two... love god and one another...

The problem is that if that were the criteria... no one would be saved.. that is why the disciples asked "who then can be saved..." to which the Lord answered... with man it is impossible but with God anything is possible...

So do you believe God can save all men or just a few?
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Well I believe there are 600+ commandments in the bible...Ot specifically... but who's counting.. right?
...we are talking about the Ten Commandments...and you clearly already understand this by the rest of your reply...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I think you could clarify whether you believe that the commandments can be fulfilled by loving one another or not. OR if you just have to fulfill the two... love god and one another...
well...that depends upon whether you think that you can fulfil all ten of them, including keeping the 4th one by loving one another and loving God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
The problem is that if that were the criteria... no one would be saved..
what do you mean by this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
that is why the disciples asked "who then can be saved..." to which the Lord answered... with man it is impossible but with God anything is possible...
...and to this I say...Amen!..it IS possible to keep them with God!...He would NEVER require something of us that He thought we could not sucessfully accomplish by the power of His Holy Spirit!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
So do you believe God can save all men or just a few?
God will save whosoever believes in His Son ENOUGH to live their lives according to His commandments...according to the covenant between Him and them.

Now...please...answer my questions:

So are you one who believes I am a "legalist?"...if so...(from what you already know of what I believe, by all my posts...you've read enough to know where I stand) what makes you think this?

and if not...what causes you to understand that I keep them out of love for my Father...?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:09 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 847,459 times
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"The Ten Words," as they are also called, were spoken in the hearing of all the people. This is different from the rest of the Torah which was by the means of intermediaries, "The Laws of Moses," or The Levitical Law. I believe the Ten Words are similar to the law of gravity, only in the moral aspect of creation. The Ten Commandments are in the consciences of all humanity everywhere. According to Paul they may be summed up with, "Love your associate as your self."
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,430,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
"The Ten Words," as they are also called, were spoken in the hearing of all the people. This is different from the rest of the Torah which was by the means of intermediaries, "The Laws of Moses," or The Levitical Law. I believe the Ten Words are similar to the law of gravity, only in the moral aspect of creation. The Ten Commandments are in the consciences of all humanity everywhere. According to Paul they may be summed up with, "Love your associate as your self."
I would agree... if all 10 or 600+ commandments are summed up with love god and one another as yourself... then what good is it to harp on the sabbath, etc... Isn't loving your neighbor/associate fulfilling the law?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,430,291 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...we are talking about the Ten Commandments...and you clearly already understand this by the rest of your reply...


well...that depends upon whether you think that you can fulfil all ten of them, including keeping the 4th one by loving one another and loving God.


what do you mean by this?


...and to this I say...Amen!..it IS possible to keep them with God!...He would NEVER require something of us that He thought we could not sucessfully accomplish by the power of His Holy Spirit!!!


God will save whosoever believes in His Son ENOUGH to live their lives according to His commandments...according to the covenant between Him and them.

Now...please...answer my questions:

So are you one who believes I am a "legalist?"...if so...(from what you already know of what I believe, by all my posts...you've read enough to know where I stand) what makes you think this?

and if not...what causes you to understand that I keep them out of love for my Father...?
Yet wasn't the covenant between God and man... CHrist being the mediator and speaking on behalf of man? So then it is MAN/CHRIST and God... So then Christ as mediator negates each individual from having to accept the covenant because Christ paid the price and God accepted it... so what is left for man to do on his own?

I believe you are a 'legalist'... Simply because you seem to be more focused on keeping the law (whether the 10 or the 600+) rather than loving one another. I believe loving one another naturally brings forth a following of the commandments... don't you?

You seem to think that loving the unseen (your Father in heaven) is a higher priority than loving those you can see... But doesn't the bible say that if you can't love those you can see then you don't truly love the one that is unseen?

See.. I believe all people are worth loving for my Father... you believe (IMHO) that loving the Father and hating people is okay....
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:07 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet wasn't the covenant between God and man... CHrist being the mediator and speaking on behalf of man? So then it is MAN/CHRIST and God... So then Christ as mediator negates each individual from having to accept the covenant because Christ paid the price and God accepted it... so what is left for man to do on his own?
...dear Jesus...help me...are you kidding me....?!..how on earth do you come up with some of this stuff kat...?...unbelievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I believe you are a 'legalist'... Simply because you seem to be more focused on keeping the law (whether the 10 or the 600+) rather than loving one another.
Really. and how do you come to this conclusion...that I am more focused on keeping the TEN COMMANDMENTS (again...NOT the 600+) than I am about loving another...? Could it be the same way you came to the conclusion above...that since Christ is the mediator...there is nothing left for anyone to do...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I believe loving one another naturally brings forth a following of the commandments... don't you?
O.K....so...since you state that loving one another brings forth a following of the commandments...do you keep the 4th commandment?...if not...does this mean you do not love one another?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
You seem to think that loving the unseen (your Father in heaven) is a higher priority than loving those you can see...
why do you say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
But doesn't the bible say that if you can't love those you can see then you don't truly love the one that is unseen?
Yes, it does...how is it that you don't think I do...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
See.. I believe all people are worth loving for my Father... ....
"...all people are worth loving for my Father..."..<...huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
you believe (IMHO) that loving the Father and hating people is okay

...wow......but, hey...that's your opinion...so what makes you think this about me?
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:43 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,430,291 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...dear Jesus...help me...are you kidding me....?!..how on earth do you come up with some of this stuff kat...?...unbelievable.


Really. and how do you come to this conclusion...that I am more focused on keeping the TEN COMMANDMENTS (again...NOT the 600+) than I am about loving another...? Could it be the same way you came to the conclusion above...that since Christ is the mediator...there is nothing left for anyone to do...?


O.K....so...since you state that loving one another brings forth a following of the commandments...do you keep the 4th commandment?...if not...does this mean you do not love one another?


why do you say this?


Yes, it does...how is it that you don't think I do...?


"...all people are worth loving for my Father..."..<...huh?


...wow......but, hey...that's your opinion...so what makes you think this about me?
Can't rightly answer this post. There doesn't seem to be anything to respond to except if I follow the 4th Commandment...

Which one is that again.. I'm not Jewish nor do I have them memorized. I'm thinking the sabbath.. but I'm not sure.

Here's the thing about the sabbath..

The Pharisees kept the sabbath yet Christ did not. Christ thought it more important to heal a sick person no matter what the day then just to keep the sabbath for legalistic sake.... I have to give kudos to Christ on that one... You can never go wrong loving one another....

I don't purposely follow the commandments but inadvertently I end up following them... Today I visited with people and helped with a charity. Tomorrow I will also impact people's lives. Loving others is more important than faith and hope....
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,261,593 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet wasn't the covenant between God and man... CHrist being the mediator and speaking on behalf of man? So then it is MAN/CHRIST and God... So then Christ as mediator negates each individual from having to accept the covenant because Christ paid the price and God accepted it... so what is left for man to do on his own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...dear Jesus...help me...are you kidding me....?!..how on earth do you come up with some of this stuff kat...?...unbelievable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I believe you are a 'legalist'... Simply because you seem to be more focused on keeping the law (whether the 10 or the 600+) rather than loving one another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
Really. and how do you come to this conclusion...that I am more focused on keeping the TEN COMMANDMENTS (again...NOT the 600+) than I am about loving another...? Could it be the same way you came to the conclusion above...that since Christ is the mediator...there is nothing left for anyone to do...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I believe loving one another naturally brings forth a following of the commandments... don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
O.K....so...since you state that loving one another brings forth a following of the commandments...do you keep the 4th commandment?...if not...does this mean you do not love one another?

you could answer this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
You seem to think that loving the unseen (your Father in heaven) is a higher priority than loving those you can see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
why do you say this?

you could answer this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
But doesn't the bible say that if you can't love those you can see then you don't truly love the one that is unseen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
Yes, it does...how is it that you don't think I do...?

you could answer this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
See.. I believe all people are worth loving for my Father...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
"...all people are worth loving for my Father..."..<...huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayjonjj
you believe (IMHO) that loving the Father and hating people is okay....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
...wow......but, hey...that's your opinion...so what makes you think this about me?

you could answer this. All these that could be answered, but aren't, is the reason for this thread...I'd truly like to know how you (in general) can judge me as you (in general) do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Can't rightly answer this post. There doesn't seem to be anything to respond to except if I follow the 4th Commandment...
I guess what I'm reaching for kat, is why?...why you and some others hold this unfounded opinion of me, as well as anyone else that professes to keep the ten commandments (including the Sabbath), as being "legalist's"...?...and not simply someone who reads Scripture and believes it to say (and it does) that those who love their Father in heaven will keep His commandments (including the Sabbath)...simply loves their Father so much, that they do keep His commandments (including the Sabbath)...?

What baffles me is this...it doesn't matter who it is, on this forum, who professes to keep the ten commandments (including the Sabbath), they are all accused of being a "legalist" simply because they do so...as far as I can see, in having read the posts on this forum now for a year and a half...not one person who professes to keep the ten commandments, including the 4th one (the Sabbath), is "judged" by anyone to be doing so simply because they love God. So...does this mean that everyone's opinion is this: That anyone who keeps the commandments (including the Sabbath) is a "legalist"...?...It's just automatic...?...stating: "Your a legalist!, and a hater of people!...and you should be shut up!...and banned from telling people they should keep the Ten Commandments of God (including the Sabbath)!".....?

....when, in all actuality...the very reason I (and I know the other commandment keeper's as well) come here in an endeavor to capture your hearts and endure some very real ill-treatment, is because I do love you and care very deeply for the state of your souls.

It isn't me I am thinking about as I endlessly strive to give you (in general) the truth as I believe the Scriptures teach it...the "rewards" I receive from man for doing so are pretty tough to bear at times....no...I take that back...they are pretty tough to bear all the time...it is a thankless message...very much an "unappreciated" message...unreceived...and it breaks my heart.......so why do I keep on keeping on...? Because I cannot stop...God will not allow me to stop...I have a truth, in my heart...and I must share it.

How can anyone label someone who they do not know...who they do not observe in what manner they are living their lives...who cannot possibly look inside their heart to see what their motivation truly is, a "legalist"...? You (in general) don't know me....obviously. And you (in general) say I judge...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Which one is that again.. I'm not Jewish nor do I have them memorized. I'm thinking the sabbath.. but I'm not sure.

Here's the thing about the sabbath..

The Pharisees kept the sabbath yet Christ did not. Christ thought it more important to heal a sick person no matter what the day then just to keep the sabbath for legalistic sake.... I have to give kudos to Christ on that one... You can never go wrong loving one another....
You are very, very mistaken in your understanding about this kat. What God has commanded, only God can set aside. You could search forever and not find a single verse that says God abolished the 4th commandment.

Paul NEVER taught a new doctrine that cancelled the 4th commandment, to keep the Sabbath holy unto God. If he did, this would have started a firestorm of controversy between the Jew and Gentile Christians over Sabbath-keeping that would have split them all in two!...and we would be reading now Paul answering the objections continuously throughout his epistles!

Stop for a moment...what do you think the Jews would have done to Paul had he revoked the Sabbath?...when they absolutely fought to keep the circumcision...and wanted to circumcise the Gentiles as well...?...we do not hear of any such thing being proposed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I don't purposely follow the commandments but inadvertently I end up following them...
But you do not keep the 4th one...the Sabbath...you do not keep it holy unto God...and God's word states that if you break one you've broken them all...but you don't believe that there is anything more you need do...because, according to you...Christ is the Mediator...and he'll take care of it....and that is very sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Today I visited with people and helped with a charity. Tomorrow I will also impact people's lives.
"...but didn't I cast out devil's in Your Name?...didn't I lay hands on and heal the sick in Your Name?"...and He said, "Away from me, I NEVER knew you...you worker of iniquity!" God does hate worker's of iniquity.<<<His words, not mine.

iniquity = sin...sin = transgression of the law...the law = the TEN commandments...if you do not keep the TEN commandments, you are living in sin. "...anyone who says they know the LORD, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him..." <<<God's words, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Loving others is more important than faith and hope....
What is love that has not faith or hope in it?

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-17-2010 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:23 AM
 
37,750 posts, read 25,439,358 times
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The answer you seek is simple, Verna . . . it is the intent and purpose based on your interpretation of the true nature of God that makes commandment keepers legalists. The whole basis for your "state of mind" and behavior is obedience to a tyrant God who hates, punishes, is jealous and vengeful, etc. Of course you claim to do this out of love . . . but as long as there is an ounce of fear and obedience in your motivations (especially for others' fates under this God's wrath). . . that love is corrupted and impure. Pure love casts out ALL fear. God is pure love and is NOT a commanding tyrant who wants us to toe the line for His sake. ALL the "laws" and schoolmaster stuff has been to train and equip us to love and behave with love . . . not to make Him happy by our obedience to specific "laws" to avoid His wrath.
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