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Old 05-19-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I did not say that lesbian sex was okay.

Good luck with your next attempt at putting words into someone else' mouth.
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. It was a question: Do you really think lesbian sex is acceptable? No need to answer again, since you already answered.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:21 PM
 
1,461 posts, read 1,230,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I disagree.

Males performing sodomy on each other is a sin, according to the Bible [Both OT and NT].
So is over-eating, why just be so obsessed with sex?
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. It was a question: Do you really think lesbian sex is acceptable? No need to answer again, since you already answered.
sigh

We all have our natures, we all must maintain control lest we sin.

Is it a sin to be a lesbian? Or to be a homosexual?
To have an urge to kill? to rape? to steal?
Or is the sin/righteousness in controlling yourself so you do not sin.

If you ask a question it is easier to understand when you include a question mark [?].

As you said, I am repeating myself, I never stated that lesbian sex was okay.

Is being a lesbian any better or any worse than having an urge to kill? No.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newhandle View Post
So is over-eating, why just be so obsessed with sex?
Proverbs advises us not to be gluttons, though the Bible never says it is a sin.

Man does.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,902,789 times
Reputation: 9412
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Proverbs advises us not to be gluttons, though the Bible never says it is a sin.

Man does.
Right, it is a Biblical advice. Sexual immorality however, is clearly defined as a sin.

IMO stuffing your face at dinner tables is no 'holier' than smoking a pack of cigarettes. Both are unhealthy habits, but not speficially categorized as sins.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:55 PM
 
1,461 posts, read 1,230,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Right, it is a Biblical advice. Sexual immorality however, is clearly defined as a sin.

IMO stuffing your face at dinner tables is no 'holier' than smoking a pack of cigarettes. Both are unhealthy habits, but not speficially categorized as sins.

Proverbs 23:20-21 “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.”
Proverbs 28:7 “He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father.”
Proverbs 23:2 “Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony."

Sounds like it is since gluttons are being told to kill themselves.

Now, since we are being picky and taking the Bible literally, all the Bible says in the original Hebrew is to not have anal intercourse - multiple times - it is in the plural meaning for those who like to take the Bible literally that having anal intercourse once is AOK. In addtion, the prohibition is on the penetrator, not the one being penetrated, so it is ok to be penetrated as long as it is by different men, but no more than once by each. As with most translations of Hebrew, translating it into modern English is fraught with errors.

The interpertation modern Christians use is based on Rabbi Akivi's interpertation circa 50 to 135 CE. Even some Orthodox rabbis now say this ancient interpertation is wrong, but should be considered at most a prohibition on anal sex, not all sex between men.

Of course, there is no prohibition on Lesbian sex.

Last edited by newhandle; 05-20-2010 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 05-22-2010, 08:55 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 11,759,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyr View Post
Please help me understand why God views homosexual behavior as sinful...could it possibly have been a commandment that only applied to ancient Israelites so that they would survive as a distinct nation and not assimilate to the ways of the pagans (pagans had lots of gay sex)...so would this law fall into the same category as the one about not having a goatee (Leviticus 19:27....the Egyptians wore goatees and God did'nt want the Jews to adopt pagan customs, he wanted them to have a unique culture that would set them apart and help Israel survive until the Savior came)
Okay, here are my views on Leviticus 18:22..

1. The Leviticus Holiness Code was directed only at the Children of Israel as they were about to enter the land of Canaan to ensure they did not follow the idolatrous ways of the Canaanites. What does it have to do with ANY non-Israelites in the 21st century?

Chapter 18 starts with "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them, I am the Lord your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes."

2. The context of idolatry/cult worship of verse 18:22 is set by the preceding verse 18:21 "You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord"
Molech (Baal) and Ashtoreth (his consort) were the main gods of the Canaanites. The Canaanites used ritual sex acts in shrines to worship their gods to ensure the fertility of the land. 18:21 could refer to either the Canaanite practice of sacrificing babies to a statue of Molech or giving children into the service of the gods to become sacred shrine prostitutes.

Either way, it's clearly to do with religious and idolatrous practices.

It makes sense that 18:22 is most likely referring to the male shrine prostitutes (qadesh) mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures in Job, Deuteronomy, Hosea and several times in Kings. If you read these books it's clear that there was a problem with the Israelites following these Canaanite idolatrous worshipping practices. These sacred male prostitutes would apparently dress as women to represent the fertility goddess. (hmmm "as with a woman"?)

3. All of the laws which carry the death penalty in Leviticus Chapter 20 are repeated in Deuteronomy, EXCEPT verse 20:13 (same as 18:22 but with the death penalty). Instead there is this:
Deut 23:17 "None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute (qadeshim), and none of the sons of Israel shall be a cult prostitute.(qadesh)"

4. It's also interesting that where the word "qadesh" was used throughout the OT, the KJV translators used the word "sodomite". This has now been corrected in most modern English versions to "male cult prostitute" or "male shrine prostitute".

5. "to'evah" (translated in English as "abomination") is found about 100 times in the Hebrew scriptures and is most often associated with idolatrous, cultural or relgious practices, not "sexual" practices in and of themselves.

6. Philo of Alexandria (20 BC - AD 40) the Jewish Philosopher understood Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to be condemning male shrine prostitution.

7. The literal translation of the Hebrew of Leviticus 18:22 is

"V'eith zakhar lo thish'kav mish'k'veiy ishah toeivah hi"
"And male not shall lie lyings of woman abhorrence it"

Perhaps it just means men shouldn't have sex with each other in a woman's bed? .
Which is kind of tacky anyway.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Right, it is a Biblical advice. Sexual immorality however, is clearly defined as a sin.

IMO stuffing your face at dinner tables is no 'holier' than smoking a pack of cigarettes. Both are unhealthy habits, but not speficially categorized as sins.
'Immorality' seems to change with the seasons. The 'moral' actions of one society will become the 'immoralities' of the next society. There are a few things which were seen as 'good' two centuries ago, even one century ago, but today are seen as horrible sins. They are not sins, they are societal morals.

Society defined morals are not constants, they blow with the winds.

The Bible clearly defines specific actions as being sin.

Sin is sin, sin never changes.

'Sexual immorality' is not defined in the Bible and is therefore not a sin.

Sins are sins and the Bible defines those clearly.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
Reputation: 17595
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhandle View Post
...
Now, since we are being picky and taking the Bible literally, all the Bible says in the original Hebrew is to not have anal intercourse - multiple times - it is in the plural meaning for those who like to take the Bible literally that having anal intercourse once is AOK. In addtion, the prohibition is on the penetrator, not the one being penetrated, so it is ok to be penetrated as long as it is by different men, but no more than once by each. As with most translations of Hebrew, translating it into modern English is fraught with errors.

The interpertation modern Christians use is based on Rabbi Akivi's interpertation circa 50 to 135 CE. Even some Orthodox rabbis now say this ancient interpertation is wrong, but should be considered at most a prohibition on anal sex, not all sex between men. ...
Good point.

We are looking at the Bible in depth here because that is the OP.

And since so many modern Christians want to think that they doctrines come from the Bible, it is good to look at it occasionally.

The act of men having anal sex with each other is described as sin.

Not 'homosexuality', which is what I have said all along.

Everyone is tempted in some manner to sin, what tempts you might differ from what tempts me.

It is not the predisposition that is sin;
it is not being tempted that is sin;
it is DOING the sin that is sin.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,902,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You have actually presented what I know to be true. Homosexuality in and of itself is not wrong according to scripture.

You can be a homosexual and be sexually pure or sexually immoral. Homosexuality in and of itself does not make one sexually immoral.

Thank you for telling me to read the bible and study, I do, I am sorry that our disagreement seems to bother you enough to need to try to imply that I do not. But that is actually more about you than me.
I never said that, you still have to deal with the temptation aspect of homosexuality just as you have to deal with the temptation aspect of heterosexuality, run from temptation. Homosexual is a term that labels a person by their sexual desires just as heterosexual does. Just because someone has desires for another whether same sex or different they are still humans. As soon as you label yourself you open yourself to temptation and God commands you run from such temptations and not embrace them.

It is not that our disagreement bothers me it is that you would be willing to label your self. I am a human male who loves his wife on many levels, I am neither homosexual nor heterosexual for they are labels of immorality. We are not to give into such labels or terms. If you killed someone you would be labeled a murderer but if seek and accept Christs gift of forgiveness then the only label you should wear and uphold is forgiven and you should take every temptation to Christ as you run from the temptations yourself.

The Apostles were sinners but they took those sins to the Cross and are forgiven as we are forgiven when we do the same.
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