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Old 05-18-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sorry Ironamw, you are impoising eisegesis on KOSMOS.
I suggest you do a study unbiased to UR or ET on this term.

"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."

"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc. -- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded -- compare Job 38:4 etc.

"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" -- compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R.V.
"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc. -- "Now we
know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under
the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."


"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If
the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers
do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world"
cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers
which is in view.


"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing
of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fullness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause
placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it
excludes Israel!


"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29, 3:16-17, 6:33, 12:47; 1
Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these
passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.


Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used
a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied
with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ!


Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know
which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage?


The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by
diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied.


The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was
His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son,and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, 'every one') believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in
contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God's "love." "God commendeth His love toward US" -- the saints, Romans
5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth" -- every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US" -- believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matthew 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see
Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Romans 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!


-- Arthur Pink, "The Sovereignty of God", Appendix 3, The
Meaning of "KOSMOS" In John 3:16




Is that it? LOL

Again you have proven to me and the forum your inability to harmonize the scriptures to support your views.

Sciotamicks,

I know you are VERY eager to prove UR wrong, but, what I want to know is, if God says He is going to reconcile ALL things to Himself, things in HEAVEN and earth, and under the earth, what does that mean??? *And, from that vantage point, could it help harmonize EVERY other*verse in the Bible?

WHAT in the heck was Paul so excited about??? *When He was talking about the AWESOME and mysterious ways of God, what was he trying to tell us???

Revelation 5:13*Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No vengeance . . . that is your version of Godly attributes. No pride either . . . that is also your version of Godly attribute (needing all that praise and glory) . . when God IS Glory . . . He needs nothing and cannot be added to by anything WE do or don't do. I weep for those who have been deceived by all such satanic corruptions of our loving God and Jesus.
Ahh yes, and the prophets were savages.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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TKC,

You are very much respected, as you are always working to interpret scripture with scripture. God bless you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Luke 6:35 plainly shows that God loves the His enemies, the unthankful, the evil.
  • Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Yes, each person must believe to be saved. But Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world including unbelievers.
I agree with you. His sacrifice is good enough for every lving soul from His death onwards. In that it is certain, otherwise, the gift is limited. However, be it that the gift is not limited, but man's obedience is.

Do we agree on that? I believe so.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Quote:
World (Jesus is Saviour of)
- unbelievers (Jesus is Saviour of these)
- believers (Jesus is Saviour "specially" (most of all) of these, because one must believe before salvation comes to fruition)
Yes to the underlined.

Quote:
World (Christ died for)
- ungodly (perishing, condemned, under the wrath of God, vessels of no mercy)
- godly (saved, vessels of mercy)
In the context of John 3:16, He not only is dying for the believers in Him, but the prose is directed at a man of the law, a law that Christ fulfilled, and a law that has requirements of, in Christ, circumcision of the heart.
Every single feast and ordinance of the Mosaic covenant was absorbed in Christ, for the salvation of Zion, for the resurrection of Zion, for those that are part of Zion, which is later realized in Paul letters to the Romans, include the Gentiles.

In the context of 1 Tim 4, Christ did indeed offer the ability for salvation, but in esence, that salvation is only effective and can come to fruition for those that believe. This we agree on completely, and I cannot argue with you there. So I will remove some of your post, because it is moot, we agree. Especially, singles out those that believe, in that the blessing and inheritance is only realized in those that believe.

So...I am trying to figure out what you and I are debating

From what I am figuring here is that you are simply a dispensationalist.
If 1 Tim 4 and our interpretation of it makes you UR, everyone is, including me. But what makes you UR, is something else, something I don't believe you are saying in this post.

The entire Christian church believes Christ's death is sufficient for everyone that will ever and have lived on earth, but the differnce between UR and the rest of the Christian church, is they believe that after man dies, and his soul is judged, he will submit to Christ and be saved. This is farther from the truth. And in fact, it isn't truth at all.
It is fake.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,201 posts, read 14,096,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Sciotamicks,

I know you are VERY eager to prove UR wrong, but, what I want to know is, if God says He is going to reconcile ALL things to Himself, things in HEAVEN and earth, and under the earth, what does that mean??? *And, from that vantage point, could it help harmonize EVERY other*verse in the Bible?
Rom. 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Who are the "we"? Those who are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). When were those reconciled? - while the where enemies. How were they reconciled? - through His death. That is a one time act by God - the reconciliation is complete.

But salvation comes through His life - not His death.

2 Cor. 5:17-20 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

V. 18 - God reconciled us to Himself through Christ. Past tense - done through the Son's death. The effect? Trespasses are not counted against them. The slate is clean. No longer can deeds hold a person back from salvation. This is effective for the whole world. That's what's Christ's death did - it removed the penalty of the law.

What about this ministry of reconciliation? And word of reconciliation? And why beg for others to be reconciled to God if reconciliation implied salvation?

The Greek word for reconciliation used in these three instances are slightly different from Paul stating the God reconciled Himself to us.

The ministry of reconciliation includes a mutual aspect - in other words, two parties need to reconcile. God did His part already through Christ's death. So Paul's ministry and word of reconciliation involves getting others to believe the gospel - so that others can be reborn through the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Again - God reconciled Himself to the world through the death of Christ. The deeds of men are no longer held against them. This is not salvation.

Salvation occurs when we reconcile ourselves to God. Through faith in the gospel, we are reborn upon receiving the Holy Spirit and become one with the living Christ.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Rom. 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Who are the "we"? Those who are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). When were those reconciled? - while the where enemies. How were they reconciled? - through His death. That is a one time act by God - the reconciliation is complete.

But salvation comes through His life - not His death.

2 Cor. 5:17-20 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

V. 18 - God reconciled us to Himself through Christ. Past tense - done through the Son's death. The effect? Trespasses are not counted against them. The slate is clean. No longer can deeds hold a person back from salvation. This is effective for the whole world. That's what's Christ's death did - it removed the penalty of the law.

What about this ministry of reconciliation? And word of reconciliation? And why beg for others to be reconciled to God if reconciliation implied salvation?

The Greek word for reconciliation used in these three instances are slightly different from Paul stating the God reconciled Himself to us.

The ministry of reconciliation includes a mutual aspect - in other words, two parties need to reconcile. God did His part already through Christ's death. So Paul's ministry and word of reconciliation involves getting others to believe the gospel - so that others can be reborn through the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Again - God reconciled Himself to the world through the death of Christ. The deeds of men are no longer held against them. This is not salvation.

Salvation occurs when we reconcile ourselves to God. Through faith in the gospel, we are reborn upon receiving the Holy Spirit and become one with the living Christ.
Amen
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Rom. 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Who are the "we"? Those who are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). When were those reconciled? - while the where enemies. How were they reconciled? - through His death. That is a one time act by God - the reconciliation is complete.

But salvation comes through His life - not His death.

2 Cor. 5:17-20 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

V. 18 - God reconciled us to Himself through Christ. Past tense - done through the Son's death. The effect? Trespasses are not counted against them. The slate is clean. No longer can deeds hold a person back from salvation. This is effective for the whole world. That's what's Christ's death did - it removed the penalty of the law.

What about this ministry of reconciliation? And word of reconciliation? And why beg for others to be reconciled to God if reconciliation implied salvation?

The Greek word for reconciliation used in these three instances are slightly different from Paul stating the God reconciled Himself to us.

The ministry of reconciliation includes a mutual aspect - in other words, two parties need to reconcile. God did His part already through Christ's death. So Paul's ministry and word of reconciliation involves getting others to believe the gospel - so that others can be reborn through the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Again - God reconciled Himself to the world through the death of Christ. The deeds of men are no longer held against them. This is not salvation.
I couldn't have said it better.

Quote:
Salvation occurs when we reconcile ourselves to God. Through faith in the gospel, we are reborn upon receiving the Holy Spirit and become one with the living Christ.
Eloquently said.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I thought this was interesting as to why they wiped out the Universalism discussion board.
Well - a bunch of universalists are here and they are a fairly well behaved bunch - don't you think?

In the light of this living proof (here) that the vast majority of universalists are very well behaved - the reason he gave IS very interesting isn't it?
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:35 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Universalism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

More information at link above regarding Universalism

"Christian Universalism" is the position that all of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus whether or not faith is professed in him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine. Salvation is not from hell, but from sin.

There are two main camps in Christian Universalism:
  1. Those who teach that the unrepentant will be punished in a future state, and that their punishment will be proportional to the degree of sin committed in the mortal state. They generally hold that the punishment is moral and not physical. There is no hell. They do not maintain that salvation is merited through these sufferings.
  2. Those who teach that all the punishment for sin occurs in this life and that God's discipline in our lives is for the purpose of purifying us, though this purification is not our merit for salvation. In eternity, there will be a loss of reward for those who did not trust in Christ in this lifetime.
Christian Universalists claim to hold many of the tenets of historic Christianity: Trinity, deity of Christ, deity of the Holy Spirit, salvation by grace, etc. As always, it is necessary to inquire and ask what is meant by the terms they use because the diversity that exists in universalist beliefs warrants further examination. Nevertheless, the Christian universalists claim to affirm:
  1. The inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible.
    1. From what I have seen here, they hold to the orthodox position.
  2. There is only one God.
    1. From what I have encountered, most universalists who claim the title "Christian universalists" do not accept the standard doctrine of the Trinity, but lean more towards either Arianism (God is one person, Jesus is created) to modalism (God takes different forms in history). This is, of course, heretical.
  3. Jesus is the Son of the Living God
    1. Many cult groups say the same thing. What they mean by the phrase is what is important. The Christian Universalists tend to say the Son is a manifestation, an image, a representation of God's essence, yet he is not equal to the Father. Therefore, they are denying His true deity. But, not all who claim to be Christian Universalists deny this.
    2. Some hold that Jesus is not God but that He is divine. This is perplexing since divinity is a quality of God, not angels or men.
  4. Jesus' Resurrection
    1. Most Christian Universalists affirm the physical resurrection of Jesus. But, some claim he did not rise from the dead physically, but was assumed into heaven to dwell with God. "The Crucified is living forever with God, as our hope. Resurrection does not mean either a return to life in space and time or a continuation of life in space and time but the assumption into that incomprehensible and comprehensive last and first reality which we call God."1
      1. If, by the above quote, the physical resurrection of Jesus is denied, as it seems it is, then anyone who holds to that position is indeed a non-Christian since it denies one of the essential doctrines of Christianity.
  5. The Holy Spirit is God's presence
    1. There is a surprisingly common denial of the personhood of the Holy Spirit. (Personhood is self-awareness, a will, the ability to speak, etc.). This is a serious error on the part of those who hold to it. But to be fair, many universalists affirm the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead.
  6. There is no salvation without accepting Jesus as Savior
    1. This statement is problematic for two reasons:
      1. Since, to many universalists, Jesus is not truly God by nature, they have an improper object of faith (denying the Trinitarian nature of God and the deity of Christ). Their faith, then, is useless since they have violated the command to worship no other God (Exodus 20) and are worshiping a false god. The Jesus they believe in, is not the real one. This means they are definitely not Christian.
      2. There is a second chance theology at work here where people who have rejected Jesus in this life can come to faith in the next life, even though he has flatly rejected Jesus' sacrificial atonement.
  7. Some Universalists believe...
    1. in consciousness after death, others do not.
    2. in limited punishment of sinners in a type of hell that is not of fire, but of some moral chastising.
    3. that punishment in the afterlife was for a limited period during which the soul was purified and prepared for eternity in the presence of God.
Conclusion
"Christian Universalism" really isn't Christian and it is meshed with many other unorthodox and erroneous teachings. This belief system should be avoided.

Matt Slick - CARM
Most of Matt's argument seems to be that some Universalists don't believe in the trinity, therefore Universalism is false.... Its not much of an argument against Universalism. He seems to be drawing an illogical conclusion.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:52 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Phazelwood,

I am a Calvinist and Full Preterist. Does that help clear things up?

Do you believe that if someone dies in this life without Christ, therefore being condemned to hell, God predestined that?
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Germany
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I wrote Mr. Slick an email once, he never replied

as I came around several times about CARM and many seem to see this page as an authority in matters of believe I decided to write them a letter on the subject of the reconciliation of the whole (Col. 1:20), I haven't received and answer yet, but maybe somebody is interested in reading it:


Dir madam or sir, please let come this letter to Mr. Slick personally, also and especially the attachments.

Dear Mr. Slick,

I came across your page, on the subject of the reconciliation of the whole (Col. 1:20) I think you are in error concerning the words translated eternal, everlasting, forever and ever etc., you will find in the attachment my interpretation of Mt. 25:46, an examination I did on the phrase eis ton aiõna in the Septuagint and the New Testament; and a part of an article of a German scholar and (Evangelical) theology professor translated into English, where he is refuting the well known St. Augustine on this subject.

I will also answer something written on your page, the phrase forever and ever in English bibles, Greek: εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων [eis tous aiõnas tõn aiõnõn], in the Latin bible SAECULA SAECULORUM, meaning ages of ages; in worldis of worldis in the archaic Wycliffe bible is translated with “von Ewigkeit zu Ewigkeit” in German bibles, in English it would be from eternity to eternity, this makes no sense in English (it doesn’t make sense in German either), where your argument lacks referring this phrase to God is, that the ages of ages at least must have a beginning, while God has no beginning, according to the German translation it includes also God’s past eternity but that would imply that some beings must have been tormented for all past eternity which is impossible, this aspect of past eternity is lost in English translations, this makes the English translation even worse according to the Greek than German from eternity to eternity (as this translation at least reveals the strange notion of such a phrase if one thinks enough, and aiõn means at least more likely eternity than it means only ever, this would be aei thus the translation from eternity to eternity is better than for ever and ever though wrong as well, some German bibles actually have for the eternities of the eternies), now while ages of ages have a beginning and are therefore not eternal, why should they have no end? – As God is, will be and has always been, His glory and life did exist before the ages of ages and will continue even if ages of ages will cease. If it would be self-evident that ages of ages means everlasting in your opinion, what reason is there not to translate literal as for example John Nelson Darby did? (yet he believed in everlasting punishment, I think I am able to show that Mr. Darby was in error in the file you'll find in the attachment)

Or may it be that is not so self-evident at all and therefore the mistranslation?

St. Augustine the champion in promoting the doctrine of everlasting torment wrote about the ages of ages (saecula saeculorum in Latin), it seems he had no idea what it is supposed to mean, if he had thought it means everlasting, I suppose he would have used this arguing in favor for this doctrine as you do, you find in The City of God against the Pagan,De civitate Dei, Liber XII, [XX], I found the Latin text and an English translation, as it seems to me St. Augustine sees no connection to eternity, I must admit I have no idea what it is supposed to mean as well, all I know is that it is most probably a Hebrew idiom, an enhancement, not in quantity but in quality, like song of songs is not countless songs but a special song, there is a similar Hebrew idiom le’netzach netzachim – maybe duration of durations found in Isaiah 34:10, which the Vulgate translates with saeculum saeculorum (age of ages), while the Septuagint has only long time (chronon polun), in this context eternity could hardly have been in the mind of the writer.

De civitate Dei, Liber XII, [XX]

Quod utrum ita faciat, et continvata sibi conexione copulentur quae appellantur saecula saeculorum, alia tamen atque alia ordinata dissimilitudine procurrentia, eis dumtaxat, qui ex miseria liberantur, in sua beata inmortalitate sine fine manentibus; an ita dicantur saecula saeculorum, ut intellegantur saecula in sapientia Dei inconcussa stabilitate manentia istorum, quae *** tempore transeunt, tamquam efficientia saeculorum, definire non audeo. Fortassis enim possit dici saeculum, quae sunt saecula, ut nihil aliud perhibeatur saeculum saeculi quam saecula saeculorum, sicut nihil aliud dicitur caelum caeli quam caeli caelorum. Nam caelum Deus vocavit firmamentum super quod sunt aquae; et tamen psalmus: Et aquae, inquit, quae super caelos, laudent nomen Domini. Quid ergo istorum duorum sit, an praeter haec duo aliquid aliud de saeculis saeculorum possit intellegi, profundissima quaestio est, neque hoc quod nunc agimus inpedit, si indiscussa interim differatur; sive aliquid in ea definire valeamus, sive nos faciat cautiores diligentior ipsa tractatio, ne in tanta obscuritate rerum adfirmare temere aliquid audeamus. Nunc enim contra opinionem disputamus, qua illi circuitus asseruntur, quibus semper eadem per interualla temporum necesse esse repeti existimantur; quaelibet autem illarum sententiarum de saeculis saeculorum vera sit, ad hos circuitus nihil pertinet; quoniam sive saecula saeculorum sint non eadem repetita, sed alterum ex altero contextione ordinatissima procurrentia, liberatorum beatitudine sine ullo recursu miseriarum certissima permanente, sive saecula saeculorum aeterna sint temporalium tamquam dominantia subditorum, circuitus illi eadem revolventes locum non habent, quos maxime refellit aeterna vita sanctorum.

"I do not presume to determine whether God does so, and whether these times which are called ages of ages are joined together in a continuous series, and succeed one another with a regulated diversity, and leave exempt from their vicissitudes only those who are freed from their misery, and abide without end in a blessed immortality; or whether these are called ages of ages, that we may understand that the ages remain unchangeable in God's unwavering wisdom, and are the efficient causes, as it were, of those ages which are being spent in time. Possibly ages is used for age, so that nothing else is meant by ages of ages than by age of age, as nothing else is meant by heavens of heavens than by heaven of heaven. For God called the firmament, above which are the waters, Heaven, and yet the psalm says, Let the waters that are above the heavens praise the name of the Lord. Which of these two meanings we are to attach to ages of ages, or whether there is not some other and better meaning still, is a very profound question; and the subject we are at present handling presents no obstacle to our meanwhile deferring the discussion of it, whether we may be able to determine anything about it, or may only be made more cautious by its further treatment, so as to be deterred from making any rash affirmations in a matter of such obscurity. For at present we are disputing the opinion that affirms the existence of those periodic revolutions by which the same things are always recurring at intervals of time. Now whichever of these suppositions regarding the ages of ages be the true one, it avails nothing for the substantiating of those cycles; for whether the ages of ages be not a repetition of the same world, but different worlds succeeding one another in a regulated connection, the ransomed souls abiding in well-assured bliss without any recurrence of misery, or whether the ages of ages be the eternal causes which rule what shall be and is in time, it equally follows, that those cycles which bring round the same things have no existence; and nothing more thoroughly explodes them than the fact of the eternal life of the saints."


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120112.htm

Concerning Greek words meaning eternal or everlasting, you might look at this list, it is very interesting, there are many words which seem to mean stricter perpetuity than aiõnios does, aiõnios is far weaker as other expressions (e.g. aidios, ateleutêtos) as you will see in the files in the attachment.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/definitionlookup?type=exact&q=eternal&lang=greek

Maybe you want to rethink your position on this subject; I hope I have presented you enough arguments to do so, your position seems not as unchallengeable at all as you might suppose and I hope you will realize, without wanting to start a personal quarrel on this subject.


This is also a most interesting, very scholarly article, the best on the subject I’ve read yet, I would recommend you to read it:

http://tojuki.tripod.com/id24.htm



I do not know if you actually believe the doctrines you endorse, you seem to be an educated and learned man, but sometimes it seems you’re more interested in doctrines for doctrines’ sake rather than for the sake of truth, though I can’t know of course and want not to accuse you falsely, maybe you’re an earnest man and a honest scholar, maybe these writings will help you.


St. Augustine was honest enough to admit in Enchiridion 112:

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture, but, at the suggestion of their own feelings, they soften down everything that seems hard, and give a milder turn to statements which they think are rather designed to terrify than to be received as literally true."

Interesting, isn't it? very many I've heard might be also translated the majority, and this alone in the Latin speaking church of that time I guess, which is known to have tought the doctrine of everlasting torment while 4 other theological schools taught the restitution of all things as the scholar says, and one school the utter destruction of the wicked; though history and tradition wether ancient or recent of course is no authority, but it is remarkable that St. Augustine admits that they not actually contradicted the Holy Scripture.

Attachments:

Professor Stroeter on aiõnios (pdf file 2 pages)
My interpreatation of Matthew 25:46 (pdf file 3 pages)
age of eternity, refuting J.N. Darby (pdf file 23 pages)



Please consider these things and do not carelessly claim things that already have been refuted before you answer me, and I hope you will answer me. I gave many quotations, Greek texts, I gave the sources etc. you can check all the claims I've made. If I am in error please show me where, If you can't do so, please be as honest as St. Augustine was and admit that the teaching of the reconcilation of the whole (Col. 1:20) does not actually contradict other teachings of the Holy Scripture at all.


Yours sincerely

PS: English is not my mother tongue, please excuse if some things might sound odd


this is the CARM link concerning the subject

A look at the word "aionion" | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/look-phrase-forever-and-ever

the attachments mentioned in the E-Mail can be read here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/686334-greek-eis-ton-aioona-what-does.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/675803-matthew-25-46-a.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/702894-conservative-prof-stroeter-subject-everlasting-punishment.html


This also has relevance to the subject:

Too Much to Lose (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/kirkcameron.htm - broken link)

In another forum, I once wrote a parody on Slick's reasoning:

Biblical Believers in Hell

the "biblical" doctrine of hell is the position that most of mankind will suffer eternally in hell although the bible says God is the savior of all men, and Jesus the savior of the whole world.

There are two main camps:

Some believe humans have immortal souls and the torments of hell are self-inflicted.

Others believe God keeps mortal people alive burning in a literal hell-fire just to eternally torment them without purpose.

Some believe God predestinated people to go to hell, others believe in free will.

Some believe there is a purgatory and hell is not eternal for bad believers but only for unbelievers

The inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible.

From what I have seen, some hold to the orthodox position, others believe only the King James bible is inspired and inerrant. For others (Catholics) tradition seems to have the same or more value as the written word. Some believe the bible is generally corrupted but some parts are true (Muslims).

There is only one God.

Many believers in hell believe in a triune God, very many worship Mary and the Saints (Catholics), Muslims say there is only one God and Jesus was just a Prophet.

Jesus is the Son of the Living God

Muslims deny this as blasphemy

Jesus' Resurrection

Muslims say Jesus never died, some believers in the trinity believe only Jesus' human part died, but not his divine part - it's questionable then if they believe that Jesus was really and literally dead and then if He was really literally ressurected from the dead when He maybe was not really dead at all.

The Holy Spirit is God's presence

Muslims believe the Holy Spirit is the Archangel Gabriel, some believe the Holy Spirit is kind of female and connected with Mary

There is no salvation without accepting Jesus as Savior

Catholics believe works are important to be saved, Muslims don't consider the belief in Jesus very important. Some prefer to prey to Mary, some believe the Pope can deliver souls from hell, some believe only the catholic church saves from hell.

Some hell believers believe...

many believers in hell believe the unbiblical doctrine of immortal souls
many believers in hell believe Mary is the mother of God
many believers in hell don't take the bible very serious but believe in the inerrancy of the Pope and human tradition, others claim the Bible is corrupted
some believers in hell use unscriptural sources like NDE's or "rew revelations" to defend their doctrine
some believers in hell neither believe that Jesus died nor is the son of God
some believers in hell believe the Holy Spirit is the Archangel Gabriel, others believe the Holy Spirit is female.

Conclusion

the "biblical" believe in hell isn't really biblical, it is often meshed with many other unorthodox and erroneous teachings such as immortal souls, purgatory, worshipping the Saints, inerrancy of the Pope. This belief system should be avoided.

Last edited by svenM; 05-19-2010 at 07:21 AM..
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