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Old 05-19-2010, 06:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Let me try it again - for those who are in Christ, yes - they will be saved through judgment. This does not apply to those not in Christ.

Again - salvation does not depend on judgment and deeds. Now all will be judged - those in Christ at the judgment seat of Christ. Those not in Christ at the White Throne judgment. But one's location depends on relationship to Christ.




As far as the bold... where does it say this? When do they get the Spirit?

The people in 1 Cor. 3 already have the foundation, which is Christ. They have overcome the world.

We know they have the spirit when they bow and confess Christ is lord, as it is written ...

1Cr 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


And all Creatures will say ...


Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


And ...


Phl 2:11
and that every tongue will confess(exomologeō - 1) to confess 2) to profess a) acknowledge openly and joyfully b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i noticed you had to rearrange the wording to make it fit your belief

1 Cor 15 actually says:
in Christ shall all be made alive.

you change the meaning when you rearrange the wording, but that is nothing new, it is an old standard way to get the scripture to fit the believe and it is done often
He was interpreting, not rearranging. But then again, it is a norm amongst the UR crowd, they hardly ever can discern between the interpretation, and the scripture.
They become one.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,330 posts, read 14,216,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We know they have the spirit when they bow and confess Christ is lord, as it is written ...

1Cr 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


And all Creatures will say ...


Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


And ...


Phl 2:11
and that every tongue will confess(exomologeō - 1) to confess 2) to profess a) acknowledge openly and joyfully b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So when do they come out of the fire? Or come out from under the earth?

By the way - I don't think the will receive the spirit on those confessions. They did not overcome the world.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
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I see your approach to my posts are getting smaller and less contextual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
What you mean is you won't break tradition.
Which means I won't infer without a proper apostleship meeting guided by the Holy Spirit (Is that good meerkat?).

Quote:
What in the context tells you it is "eternal life"? Even John 3:16 only promises eonian life (aionios zoe). What context tells you that John 3:16 is "eternal life"? I believe you are substituting tradition for context.
You mean eternal life, which is denoted in John 3:16, in regards to Israel, their resurrection for those in the book of life, the eternal life in the kingdom of heaven?

Quote:
You dismiss the so-called "UR" bibles when all they are is literally translated bibles. They are the only bibles that consistently translate aion/aionios so you can easily see how the word is used.

But you dismiss them because it disagrees with your tradition of "eternal".
I dismiss YLT because he refused to have it reviewed by the council.
He translated it by himself. No private interpretations.

Quote:
"eonian life" is not immortality. Immortality is promised elsewhere, but it is not called "eonian" or "eternal" life. Mainstream Christianity has mixed up the two.
No UR has denied it differently to fit their ideas. AIONIOS defined in the context of life after resurrection, is eternal, wherein those that are resurrected. The context of 1 Cor 15 is the same. The resurrection of the dead ones. So is Matt 25..the same context, same event. The resurrection of the dead. You cannot separate the two. Matt 25 is about the second coming, the resurrection of the dead, the coming of the kingdom, and so is 1 Cor 15, and the incorruptible body is harmoniously identical to the body living in the state of eternal life as the result of the resurrection of the dead.

You are incorrect.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:51 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
So when do they come out of the fire? Or come out from under the earth?

By the way - I don't think the will receive the spirit on those confessions. They did not overcome the world.

The only one who has overcome the world is Christ according to the scriptures(Jhn 16:33), and through him we overcome.

Though we as Believers in Christ overcome wickedness ... It is just a matter of time when all shall overcome wickedness by baptism of the spirit in this life, or by the baptism of fire at the time of judgment.

We are not told how long they will be in the lake of fire, but i think it is important to realize that the lake of fire is symbolic and not to be taken literally. When they are in the lake of fire, they are in the presence of the lamb and his angels ...

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


The smoke of their torment rises up into the ages of ages, not for ever and ever ... The words "aionas" and "aionon" are are plural nouns and should be translated "ages", but in many bibles they are translated with the adverb "ever" ... the smoke represents the transformed soul that rises from into the ages of ages, or the consummation of the ages top become one with God so that at last God will be all in all.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I see your approach to my posts are getting smaller and less contextual.



Which means I won't infer without a proper apostleship meeting guided by the Holy Spirit (Is that good meerkat?).



You mean eternal life, which is denoted in John 3:16, in regards to Israel, their resurrection for those in the book of life, the eternal life in the kingdom of heaven?



I dismiss YLT because he refused to have it reviewed by the council.
He translated it by himself. No private interpretations.



No UR has denied it differently to fit their ideas. AIONIOS defined in the context of life after resurrection, is eternal, wherein those that are resurrected. The context of 1 Cor 15 is the same. The resurrection of the dead ones. So is Matt 25..the same context, same event. The resurrection of the dead. You cannot separate the two. Matt 25 is about the second coming, the resurrection of the dead, the coming of the kingdom, and so is 1 Cor 15, and the incorruptible body is harmoniously identical to the body living in the state of eternal life as the result of the resurrection of the dead.

You are incorrect.
In John 17, Christ defines eternal life as knowing God and his son whom he sent. How then do you say that is the same as immortality? One can live this life knowing Christ and God which is having eternal life. What you are describing is not eternal life but immortality. Nothing about the definition Christ gives is indicative of the modern definition of eternal.

So no.. you are incorrect. How do you argue against what Christ defined?
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
In John 17, Christ defines eternal life as knowing God and his son whom he sent. How then do you say that is the same as immortality?
Because when I accepted Christ, I received my immortal body - 1 Cor 15:31, 15:36, 15:53,54
I now have eternal life, because I know Him. Because I know Him, I will never die the death that those will die without knowing Him. Get it?

No...you are incorrect Kat. You don't understand this concept. I have tried to explain it to you on several occasions, but you are in strict denial of it because of UR. Take off those glasses.

31 - I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
36 - [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
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Old 05-19-2010, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Because when I accepted Christ, I received my immortal body - 1 Cor 15:31, 15:36, 15:53,54
I now have eternal life, because I know Him. Because I know Him, I will never die the death that those will die without knowing Him. Get it?

No...you are incorrect Kat. You don't understand this concept. I have tried to explain it to you on several occasions, but you are in strict denial of it because of UR. Take off those glasses.

31 - I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
36 - [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Again you are confusing and adding to Christ's simple definition of eternal life and merging it with immortality... the two are separate. Death is swallowed up in victory... Verse 36.. Fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die...

John 17:2-3 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Nothing in there shows that eternal life is synonymous with immortality. Unless you have a reason from scripture for this I cannot see why you would argue it like this.

Also... the passage you correlates with Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

Notice the contrast between God wiping tears from ALL faces and removing reproach from HIS PEOPLE.. So ALL faces and HIS PEOPLE are two different groups. HIS PEOPLE are a select few out of the ALL.

Isaiah 51:11 So the ransomed of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away.

And who is ransomed?

1 Tim 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

ALL MEN are ransomed... therefore the ransomed of the Lord will return .. they will obtain gladness and joy!

This will probably not sit well with you but hopefully someone else will see the truth in why your eternal life equaling immortality is an interpolation on your part.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:11 AM
 
3,585 posts, read 464,829 times
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Sciotamicks

I really do not see how you can have a mortal body at the same time as having an immortal body.........

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You are in your natural body and are mortal.
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again you are confusing and adding to Christ's simple definition of eternal life and merging it with immortality... the two are separate.
No they aren't. I have shown that they are both cohesive.
Here is more:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.


Cohesive. Would you like some more exegesis?
Again, the straightforward understanding of eternal life here is in view, and Christ is the one who gives it. Same goes for the identical contexts of Matt 25 in regards to eternal life and punishment. What a Christian has is life, without death. There is no victory in the grave for the believer. Paul goes into great detail in both entire Corinthian letters, explaining this very concept.
A concept, that is easy to grasp for the believer, why is it so hard for you?
You claim to be believer...part of being a Christian is following His teachings, and His teachings involve the gift of eternal life through Him. You deny this, how can you say you are a Christian?
You deny Him this way?

Please explain?

Quote:
Unless you have a reason from scripture for this I cannot see why you would argue it like this.
I'm not arguing. You are. I am telling and teaching. I have shown the scripture, you cannot see, others can, my job is done. You were the one tapping my shoulder about this.

Quote:
Also... the passage you correlates with Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

Notice the contrast between God wiping tears from ALL faces and removing reproach from HIS PEOPLE.. So ALL faces and HIS PEOPLE are two different groups. HIS PEOPLE are a select few out of the ALL.

Isaiah 51:11 So the ransomed of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away.
Rev 21:3-4 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

His people are ransomed. There is more though....

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Another people not ransomed.
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