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For those in Christ, you are correct. Not all are in Christ.
You did not even respond to the proof that one can be saved at the time of judgment. You skip over the parts you don't like.
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I do not agree.
What you agree with is of no consequence, show me a different definition of the words given in the scriptures. They only have one definition, other than the one you made up.
Below are my answers to your points are in red ...
You are saved if you are one with Christ upon departing planet earth.
Yes, i agree, but i do not agree that you must be one with Christ before you depart planet earth(die) in order to be saved. If that is what you are saying ... Scripture please?
A person is one w/ Christ when they receive the Holy Spirit.
Agreed ...
A person receives the Holy Spirit through their personal faith (a gift from God) in the gospel.
Its the other way around, one receives faith through the holy spirit, as faith is a fruit of the spirit.
For a person to believe the gospel, it must be preached to others.
For a person to believe the gospels, they must be born again by the spirit, as one who is not born of the spirit cannot understand the things of the spirit, and the gospel is a thing of the spirit.
The only reason this is possible is because of Christ's death for everyone.
Agreed ...
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There will be a day that all confess Christ after they leave the earth (Phil. 2:13). But some will not have the Spirit, and therefore will not be with Christ in kingdom of heaven - but wherever they are, they will believe.
According to the scriptures one cannot confess Christ is lord except by the power of the holy spirit ...
1Cr 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Therefore all who confess that Christ is lord in the last day when every knee bows will have the holy spirit.
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What is you Scriptural support for unbelievers on earth being in the kingdom?
I never said unbelievers on earth are in the kingdom, i am saying that after the resurrection and after they(unbelievers in this life) have been purified by the fiery judgments of God, when they confess Christ is lord by the holy spirit, then they will then enter into the kingdom ...
Ah, so when you say "Rebirth as a new creation only can happen in this life", its not "rhetoric without exegesis"?!?
But when I say URs disagree with you, it is "rhetoric without exegesis"?!?
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Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You have been corrected again.
sciotamicks, tone down the arrogance please. I am well aware of Romans 10:9.
You said "profession of faith rewards salvation". That sounds like you think salvation is a reward for your profession of faith. Salvation is not a reward. If it was a reward that would mean it is merited based on something we do. It is a complete work of God - so none can boast.
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Some points? It appears the "some points" are fundamental requirements of a believer. UR believes in post mortem profession of faith, which is NO WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURE. Therefore it is false.
Rhetoric without exegesis.
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Yes, many of you do, but many of you claim this title and don't. Like yourself and Ironmaw for example, among others like Alabama and so forth, I consider Christians, misguided, but so are all of us in some ways and others, but that doesn't discount us apart from the faith....at all. IMO, you are a brother in Christ to me. Just a little messed up in your interpretation, but then again, you can say the same about me.
Well thankyou.
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Legoman....it is AIONIOS ZOE, not EONIAN LIFE. And the adjective, means several different things depending on context, but then again, you are a UR, you can't see past the definition that supports everything you believe in.
Eonian life is how it is translated in the Concordant Literal bible. Aionios Zoe is the Greek. What is the problem? Your translation is right and mine's wrong? Do you not think the Concordant Literal is a real translation? What about Young's Literal? Rotherham's? etc. Can you at least understand the URs point that there may be something fishy with the word "eternal" in many English translations?
Ah, so when you say "Rebirth as a new creation only can happen in this life", its not "rhetoric without exegesis"?!?
But when I say URs disagree with you, it is "rhetoric without exegesis"?!?
I am fine with you disagreeing with me and my exegesis, but if you want to be regarded in any way credible, you need to provide an exegesis to counter mine or the author of the article. I firmly believe in scripture interpreting scripture, not assumptions and emotions interpreting the scripture.
Otherwise, it is ET rhetorical jargon.
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sciotamicks, tone down the arrogance please. I am well aware of Romans 10:9.
Then stop denying the above and the below of having to profess faith in our life. 1 Cor 15 defeats you as well, as does many others....would you like me to exegete again? .
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You said "profession of faith rewards salvation". That sounds like you think salvation is a reward for your profession of faith.
YES IT IS! Salvation is not a forced offering on all mankind whether they like it or not. It is a reward for the Israelite, Jew or Gentile, for their faith in Christ! Good grief...what book are you reading?
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Salvation is not a reward.
Yes it is.
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If it was a reward that would mean it is merited based on something we do. It is a complete work of God - so none can boast.
No! Salvation is a gift given for those who have faith. God gives salvation. God's regenerates man for His good work. If you aren't regenerated, no salvation. Get it? Man is regenerated, he professes. God gives him life.
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Eonian life is how it is translated in the Concordant Literal bible.
You mean the UR Bible?
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What about Young's Literal?
YLT = private interpretation. I don't use it at all. I use Esword and other programs and several hardcover editions.. I always compare several translation and draw from them all, while always reading them with several exegetical glossaries and concordances by my side. I am very careful about how I interpret the scripture. And then, when I see something I haven't seen it before, you know what I do, I confer with my elders and leaders, so that I am not going astray on my own thoughts and emotions.
I stay grounded in the faith.
Where there is two, the He is.
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Rotherham's?
Another UR edition.
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[Can you at least understand the URs point that there may be something fishy with the word "eternal" in many English translations?
No. I read the context and that defines it. Eternal life, eternal punishment.
Pretty simple.
I am fine with you disagreeing with me and my exegesis, but if you want to be regarded in any way credible, you need to provide an exegesis to counter mine or the author of the article. I firmly believe in scripture interpreting scripture, not assumptions and emotions interpreting the scripture.
Otherwise, it is ET rhetorical jargon.
I guess I missed your "exegesis" on how salvation is only available in this life. Sorry Heb 9:27 doesn't cut it.
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Then stop denying the above and the below of having to profess faith in our life. 1 Cor 15 defeats you as well, as does many others....would you like me to exegete again? .
If you must.
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YES IT IS! Salvation is not a forced offering on all mankind whether they like it or not. It is a reward for the Israelite, Jew or Gentile, for their faith in Christ! Good grief...what book are you reading?
No! Salvation is a gift given for those who have faith. God gives salvation. God's regenerates man for His good work. If you aren't regenerated, no salvation. Get it? Man is regenerated, he professes. God gives him life.
You are way off base here. Salvation is a gift, not a reward. Reward implies something given for merit. If salvation was a reward, YOU COULD BOAST ABOUT IT.
YLT = private interpretation. I don't use it at all. I use Esword and other programs and several hardcover editions.. I always compare several translation and draw from them all, while always reading them with several exegetical glossaries and concordances by my side. I am very careful about how I interpret the scripture. And then, when I see something I haven't seen it before, you know what I do, I confer with my elders and leaders, so that I am not going astray on my own thoughts and emotions.
I stay grounded in the faith.
What you mean is you won't break tradition.
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Where there is two, the He is.
Another UR edition.
No. I read the context and that defines it. Eternal life, eternal punishment.
Pretty simple.
What in the context tells you it is "eternal life"? Even John 3:16 only promises eonian life (aionios zoe). What context tells you that John 3:16 is "eternal life"? I believe you are substituting tradition for context.
You dismiss the so-called "UR" bibles when all they are is literally translated bibles. They are the only bibles that consistently translate aion/aionios so you can easily see how the word is used.
But you dismiss them because it disagrees with your tradition of "eternal".
"eonian life" is not immortality. Immortality is promised elsewhere, but it is not called "eonian" or "eternal" life. Mainstream Christianity has mixed up the two.
I use Esword and other programs and several hardcover editions.. I always compare several translation and draw from them all, while always reading them with several exegetical glossaries and concordances by my side. I am very careful about how I interpret the scripture. And then, when I see something I haven't seen it before, you know what I do, I confer with my elders and leaders, so that I am not going astray on my own thoughts and emotions.
I stay grounded in the faith.
Where there is two, the He is.
IMO you seem to have left out the Holy Spirit to be guiding you ...........
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe
Matt has a whole article on this one verse, yet he fails to address the basic point that URs believe: how can God be the savior of all men if He doesn't save all men?
Matt makes specious arguments like "all men are saveable by Jesus" or salvation is only realized by believers. Then there is this bizarre arguement: God is the "savior" of the world because He doesn't crush all the unbelievers right now. God is giving all a nice steak dinner before He BBQs most everyone for eternity.
But the point remains unaddressed: if some men are not saved, then God is not the savior of all men, thus Eternal Torment makes 1 Tim 4:10 a lie. The title "Savior of All Men" cannot be applied if all men are not saved. A fireman says I am the savior of all the children in that fire. But then someone notices half the children died. Is the fireman the savior of all the children? Words mean something.
Let's get to it.
God is Saviour of the world.
John 4:42 - "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."
1 John 4:14 - We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Luke 2:10-11 - But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
However, Christ says there are some who will not believe...
John 3:16-18 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
There are two opposite things there. Is God Saviour of the world? Yes. Will unbelievers not see life? Yes.
God's desire is for all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). So what did He do? He provided the means - He did the work for all of mankind by sending His Son to the cross. So He is the Saviour of the world. He reconciled the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:18). He paid the freight for all. Why? So we don't have to work for it. And even in that, He provides the Spirit so that we are One with Himself and Christ. He provides the faith. He is the Savior of the world because He has done everything to provide salvation for all people.
So what's the problem? Why aren't all saved? Some have not overcome the world.
Rev. 21:7-8 - "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Who are the overcomers?
1 John 5:4-5 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
And who are born of God?
1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,
In 1 Tim 4:10, the last part specifies that He is Saviour especially for believers. If God saved all men, this phrase would not be there. There would be no reason to make the distinction. Jesus would not state that the wrath of God will abide on some. The goats would not be issued into the eternal fire (Matt. 25:41). It is obvious that there are statements of judgment from Christ. It is obvious that not all overcome the world.
And there are no direct verses that state people who do not believe on earth will be saved after this life. That view is erroneously extrapolated from the misinterpretation that all will be saved.
Not alone it does not, but compared to myriad other verses, we understand it to mean just that.
Eph 1:10-11
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he mightgather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
1Cr 15:20-28
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Rom 5:15-21
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many (not all). And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 4:10-11
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
See my response to Legoman regarding the Timothy verses.
I highlighted in blue above what I thought is important.
1 Cor. 15 - All in Christ will be made alive - not all will be made alive.
Rom. 5 - The free gift has come to all - but not all received the gift.
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