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Old 05-19-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,315,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What about Romans chapter 4 which states that Abraham was credited with faith BEFORE his act of circumcision? Not after... before. So you CAN be credited with faith (and thus salvation) BEFORE you show any outward signs of change.
Did you miss Gen 12? Where Abraham was obedient to the Lord's calling?

Quote:
It is entirely biblical that salvation is "activated" or "credited" before outward signs manifest
No it isn't. Christ is strict about who receives Him, receives salvation, which is eternal life, and that is the hope of Israel, Jew and Gentile.

Quote:
Once you have realized your salvation there is no need to have faith.
Where in the heck do you get this stuff from?

2 Tim 3:14-15 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Man must continue living in obedience to God's will in order to remain in God's favor. Yes, he will sin again. When he does, he must again go to God for forgiveness; but to be forgiven he must renew his determination and effort to obey God's will. Faith is essential to salvation. But faith is a command - a work - something required in obedience to God. Therefore obedience is essential to salvation, since faith is a required form of obedience. If one claims that works of obedience are not necessary, he is saying faith is not necessary. If he then says faith is necessary, he contradicts himself.

Galatians 5:6 - What avails in Christ is faith working through love.

James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead like the body without a spirit. But works are necessary to complete faith (to make it perfect from the perfect sacrifice- Heb 10:14). Without obedience, faith is dead and incomplete. The faith that justifies is the faith that leads to works.

Hebrews 10:39; 11:8,30 - Here in these verses are examples to the kind of faith we must have to have salvation. All examples show that men received the blessings of God only after their faith led them to obey His commands and callings. Faith that does not obey is faith that cannot save.

The Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, as well as the doctrine of love, instead of proving obedience is not essential, proves the opposite - faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Obedience is included in justification by faith.

1 John 2:3-6 - To know Him and abide in Him, we must keep his commands, keep his word. If we are not doing so, but still claim to know Him, we are liars, and we don't abide in Him. Note also what happens to liars in Rev. 21:8; John 15:5,6.]

1 John 3:6-8,10 - If we want to be righteous, we must practice righteousness. If we practice sin, we are of the devil.
If we don't practice righteousness, we are not of God.

Obedience is essential. We must be "doers of the word" - James 1:22 and cross reference 1 John 3:24:

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What obedience is required?

We must believe, repent (Acts 2:38), confess (Rom. 10:9,10), be baptized (Acts 22:16; 2:38; Mk. 16:16; I Pet. 3:21; Gal. 3:27), and live a faithful life (I Cor. 15:58)....so no, you are wrong Katonjj.
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:33 PM
 
3,679 posts, read 485,513 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The thread title is true... Once saved always saved... believers salvation is secure. Both true. However, where is it stated in the scripture that salvation is limited to believers only? Where does it say that there is criteria to fulfill to receive a free gift?

Yes believers are saved.. they have recognized their salvation. But was their salvation 'activated' after they believed or before? I would say the bible states the salvation is what propels them into belief.. Can anyone show otherwise in scripture?
Kat -- the thing is if you physically read the bible -- the words in it will support every differing/opposing doctrine that you can name -- the things of God are spiritually discerned

Believe and be saved is in the bible words that Jesus said to the unrepentant Jews who were about to crucify him -- because of their hardness of heart and because they were physical Jews physically circumcised they were not going to be saved from the wrath of God against ungodliness ---

This psalm gives the process of salvation which includes the chastisement. Chastisement comes after rebellion and before calling out to God --- when we call out to God he will hear us and heal us.

Psa 107:9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
Psa 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
Psa 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
Psa 107:12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
Psa 107:13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
Psa 107:15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:44 PM
 
3,679 posts, read 485,513 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post





See above. It is entirely biblical that salvation is "activated" or "credited" before outward signs manifest... this is what the faith of Abraham is! Once you have realized your salvation there is no need to have faith... why retain the faith of salvation when you HAVE salvation? If I have faith I will eat a candy bar while eating it... that is not faith. Just like believing you have salvation when you see it doesn't require faith at all. I would use Thomas as an example of this. His unbelief did nothing to change the facts that he saw later.
Kat,

I agree with Sciotamicks, To my mind Abraham is symbolic of leaving the physical behind and having faith before being tested (sacrificing his son) his faith was shown by his works, it was shown by his works as he was being tested.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:04 PM
 
20,447 posts, read 15,824,176 times
Reputation: 7719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The reason why faith is non-meritorious is because it is a gift from God. We are given faith and repentance, they are not of ourselves.


Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Gal 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Act 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

2Ti 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
To the contrary.

Pistis-Faith, as in believing, is the responsibility of man.


Pistis-Faith, as in the Gospel-that which is believed, is from God.


To put it another way,

'The Gospel'-Pistis-faith is from God.

'Belief'-Pistis- saving faith-confidence in Christ, is from man who hears the Gospel-Pistis-faith. And therefore believes.

So there is no room for misunderstanding...

The Greek word Pistis is translated both as faith in the sense of believing, and also as the Gospel, or the body of truth which is believed-Bible doctrine. Also, Pistis refers to the Christian faith itself.

Eph. 2:8,9 refers to salvation being from God, not saving faith.

Romans 10:13 For ''WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!'' 16 ) However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says ''Lord, who has believed our report?'' 17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (The Gospel) .

Faith for salvation simply means relying on Christ for salvation. That reliance, that confidence, comes as a result of learning something about Christ by means of Gospel hearing. It is the exact same kind of faith as is exercised in any area of life. You believe something, whatever it is, because someone tells you about that something. A child (if he's smart) believes his parents, that he will get burned if he touches the hot stove. That is faith. The child trust's his parents and so he believes them.

In salvation, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. The merit is in Christ, not the faith. The faith is only a conduit through which the work of Christ on the Cross is applied to the one who believes.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:24 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,238,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary.

Pistis-Faith, as in believing, is the responsibility of man.


Pistis-Faith, as in the Gospel-that which is believed, is from God.


To put it another way,

'The Gospel'-Pistis-faith is from God.

'Belief'-Pistis- saving faith-confidence in Christ, is from man who hears the Gospel-Pistis-faith. And therefore believes.

So there is no room for misunderstanding...

The Greek word Pistis is translated both as faith in the sense of believing, and also as the Gospel, or the body of truth which is believed-Bible doctrine. Also, Pistis refers to the Christian faith itself.

Eph. 2:8,9 refers to salvation being from God, not saving faith.

Romans 10:13 For ''WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!'' 16 ) However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says ''Lord, who has believed our report?'' 17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (The Gospel) .

Faith for salvation simply means relying on Christ for salvation. That reliance, that confidence, comes as a result of learning something about Christ by means of Gospel hearing. It is the exact same kind of faith as is exercised in any area of life. You believe something, whatever it is, because someone tells you about that something. A child (if he's smart) believes his parents, that he will get burned if he touches the hot stove. That is faith. The child trust's his parents and so he believes them.

In salvation, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. The merit is in Christ, not the faith. The faith is only a conduit through which the work of Christ on the Cross is applied to the one who believes.
I know you disagree, you boast of earning your salvation by being smart enough to believe of your own self.

But the scriptures are clear that our faith is a gift from God, it is a fruit of the spirit. You cannot show me one verse that says that our faith in Christ comes from our carnal nature.

Before we are born again we are spiritually dead, and if you claim to have had faith and believed before you were born again of the spirit, then you contradict the scriptures which say that the carnal man cannot understand the things of the spirit of God.

I believe that the reason you believe the way you do is so that you can believe you are worthy of salvation because you chose Christ, and those who do not choose Christ therefore deserve eternal damnation.

But you are wrong ...

Romans 10:13 is an interesting verse, but it cannot contradict the rest of the scriptures ... "Shall be" is not in the original Greek ...

Here is the interlinear ...

Quote:
pas
pas
G3956
a_ Nom Sg m
EVERY
every-one

gar
gar
G1063
Conj
for

os
hos
G3739
pr Nom Sg m
WHO

an
an
G302
Part
EVER

epikaleshtai
epikalesEtai
G1941
vs Aor Mid 3 Sg
SHOULD-BE-ON-CALLING
should-be-involking


to
to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE

onoma
onoma
G3686
n_ Acc Sg n
NAME

kuriou
kuriou
G2962
n_ Gen Sg m
OF-Master
of-Lord

swqhsetai
sOthEsetai
G4982
vi *** Pas 3 Sg
SHALL-BE-BEING-SAVED
It could also be translated as, "whoever should/shall be calling on the name of the lord shall be being saved" ...

Thus we see that calling on the name of the lord is a part of the process of salvation, and does not preclude salvation.

Christ and the father draw us to the cross, renew us in the spirit and we then confess him as lord and call on him and we are saved.

You cannot call upon the lord unless you can confess Christ as lord, and you cannot confess Christ as lord accept by the spirit.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-19-2010 at 03:41 PM..
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I know you disagree, you boast of earning your salvation by being smart enough to believe of your own self.
That's the kind of statement I expect from you.

As is this...

From the thread ' What does the Bible say about Hell', post #62.

Posted by you.

I reject your fear mongering and spiritual terrorism. The ones who will suffer the fire of the wrath of God are those who use fear and hate to try and control others.

It is so obvious how twisted your mind is in hate and anger ... I feel sorry for you. But i believe in the living God, who is the savior of all people, especially those that are believing. And i believe he will heal your soul and open your heart in the end, you and all the other misanthropic enemies of mankind who cherish the thought of most of creation suffering for ever, and spread the lies of eternal death and evil.

My lord has victory even over you and your lies. He will have the final victory over your false gospel as well. Then we will all sing his name to the Glory of the father together at last ... Until then, may God have mercy on us all...



Quote:
But the scriptures are clear that our faith is a gift from God, it is a fruit of the spirit. You cannot show me one verse that says that our faith in Christ comes from our carnal nature.
I can show your any number of verses. Every single verse that says believe, or have faith. Faith is a response to the Gospel.

I have already shown you the distinctions in the word Pistis. You refuse to listen. You persist in making the accusation that having to have faith to be saved means that the person exercising that faith somehow gets the credit, when you've been told over and over again that it doesn't.




Quote:
Before we are born again we are spiritually dead, and if you claim to have had faith and believed before you were born again of the spirit, then you contradict the scriptures which say that the carnal man cannot understand the things of the spirit of God.
To the contrary. I have told you and others several times on various threads that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever. And having understood the Gospel, he is then able to make a decision to believe in Christ or to reject Christ.

Quote:
I believe that the reason you believe the way you do is so that you can believe you are worthy of salvation because you chose Christ, and those who do not chose Christ are therefore worthy of damnation.

But you are wrong ...
No, you are wrong in your assumption. Again, I have already told you more than once that the merit is in the object of faith. Not in the faith or in the one who has faith.

Quote:
Romans 10:13 is an interesting verse, but it cannot contradict the rest of the scriptures ...
Universalism thrives on and cannot exist without contradicting the Scriptures.

Furhermore, you are ignoring the rest of the passage Romans 10:13-17. You know, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Faith is the result of Gospel hearing.


Quote:
"Shall be" is not in the original Greek ...

Here is the interlinear ...

It could also be translated as, whoever should be calling on the name of the lord is being saved ...

Thus we see that calling on the name of the lord is a part of the process of salvation, and does not preclude salvation.

No one is saved until they put their faith in Christ.


Quote:
Christ and the father draw us to the cross, renew us in the spirit and we then confess him as lord and call on him and we are saved.

You cannot call upon the lord unless you can confess Christ as lord, and you cannot confess Christ as lord accept by the spirit.
As I have already said, the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel message understandable to the hearer, and then the hearer of the Gospel makes a decision.


Now, I have already said in the first post on the thread that I wasn't going to waste my time arguing with people who don't have sense enough to understand the eternal security of the believer. I didn't expect the uni's to intrude on this thread. As usual, you people are trying to turn this into a thread about universalism. But I am not going to waste any more of my time on you.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-19-2010 at 04:38 PM..
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Powdersville, SC
3 posts, read 3,936 times
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Thanks everyone for Standing on the Truth of God's word and not being afraid to speak what you believe!
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:47 PM
 
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I posted this thread for the purpose of providing information regarding the eternal security of the believer. I hope that people will not allow themselves to be sidetracked and put off by the other things that are being introduced into this thread by various others.

There are those who seek the truth of the matter but are honestly confused by all the false teaching that abounds. I have presented the facts on eternal security. If anyone is interested in coming to a knowledge of the truth, then study the material in the original post.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:03 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,238,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That's the kind of statement I expect from you.

As is this...

From the thread ' What does the Bible say about Hell', post #62.

Posted by you.

I reject your fear mongering and spiritual terrorism. The ones who will suffer the fire of the wrath of God are those who use fear and hate to try and control others.

It is so obvious how twisted your mind is in hate and anger ... I feel sorry for you. But i believe in the living God, who is the savior of all people, especially those that are believing. And i believe he will heal your soul and open your heart in the end, you and all the other misanthropic enemies of mankind who cherish the thought of most of creation suffering for ever, and spread the lies of eternal death and evil.

My lord has victory even over you and your lies. He will have the final victory over your false gospel as well. Then we will all sing his name to the Glory of the father together at last ... Until then, may God have mercy on us all...
Mike, i believe what i said above, though i could have been more tactful about how i said it. I believe you are deceived, and i believe that you have a hard heart towards humanity and that is why you take such a strong stance in the defense of eternal torment. I cannot imagine any other doctrine taught by men which requires a harder heart to believe in than this one. It is monstrous, and completely diabolical ...

I do believe he will heal you and one day you will realize just how terrible what you are preaching to be true really is.




Quote:
I can show your any number of verses. Every single verse that says believe, or have faith. Faith is a response to the Gospel.

I have already shown you the distinctions in the word Pistis. You refuse to listen. You persist in making the accusation that having to have faith to be saved means that the person exercising that faith somehow gets the credit, when you've been told over and over again that it doesn't.
Faith is a response to the work of God within us ... That is why it is a fruit of the spirit. Unless we have the spirit working within us to produce the fruit of faith, we cannot have true faith.

The scriptures i quoted which say that faith is given by God to man do not make the distinction you make reference to. IMHO, you are adding to the scriptures by imagining those verses to be speaking of "The faith" as being what is given man and not "faith" which is what we have which is otherwise known as belief in the gospel.

You and Sciotamicks speak out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. You say that faith is of yourselves, that your faith in Christ was a personal choice of your own carnal will which effectively produced the rebirth of your selves in the spirit. Sciotamicks recently went so far in another thread to say that salvation is a reward for faith. I cant understand why it is so hard for you both and those who believe the way that you do to realize that faith in Christ is by election, that it is the fruit of the spirit of God working in our lives which literally causes us to will and do his Good pleasure.

The scriptures say that the only thing we can do to please God is have faith, and that it is he that works with us both to WILL and to DO his good pleasure. If it were not for the work he is doing/has done in our lives we would not have faith and we would not be pleasing him.



Quote:
To the contrary. I have told you and others several times on various threads that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever. And having understood the Gospel, he is then able to make a decision to believe in Christ or to reject Christ.
Then why do so many people misunderstand the gospel to begin with? If the spirit of God makes it understandable to the spiritually dead? If they understood it they would receive it. But they don't, it is foolishness to them, so they reject it.

Again you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

The spirit makes it possible for us to understand the gospel message when we are renewed by the spirit. When we are born again of the spirit. And even then we have to mature in the spirit, and cannot immediately grasp the deeper mysteries of the spirit. If fact it is a work always in progress, which some never get very far into because of the bondage of the tradition of men which would keep them ignorant of the absolute grace which is procured for all things in Christ our lord.


Quote:
No, you are wrong in your assumption. Again, I have already told you more than once that the merit is in the object of faith. Not in the faith or in the one who has faith.
And i repeat ... According to scripture, faith itself is a gift, a fruit of the spirit.



Quote:
Universalism thrives on and cannot exist without contradicting the Scriptures.

Furhermore, you are ignoring the rest of the passage Romans 10:13-17. You know, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Faith is the result of Gospel hearing.
Im not ignoring that, i am disagreeing with your interpretation of it. Yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Who is the spoken word of God? Christ is ... He is the one that opens our ears so that we can hear what the spirit is saying. Not the dead letters written in a book.




Quote:
No one is saved until they put their faith in Christ.
No one is saved until they are Given faith in Christ. By grace we are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves ... It is the gift of God.

There are two aspects of salvation, grace and faith, and they are both together, in the total package of salvation, a free gift of God.



Quote:
As I have already said, the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel message understandable to the hearer, and then the hearer of the Gospel makes a decision.
The holy spirit first begins to renew our minds, so that we can understand the things of the spirit, and comprehend the gospel message. Without that renewing we cannot understand it and we think it is foolishness. That is why people do not believe, because they cant understand it and think it is foolish. Why cant they understand it? Because they are blind and def to spiritual things, because the spirit of God has not yet begun to renew their minds.

Quote:
Now, I have already said in the first post on the thread that I wasn't going to waste my time arguing with people who don't have sense enough to understand the eternal security of the believer. I didn't expect the uni's to intrude on this thread. As usual, you people are trying to turn this into a thread about universalism. But I am not going to waste any more of my time on you.
I understand the eternal security doctrine. Though i do also believe one can fall from grace. That doesn't mean they are not to be saved, it just means that they are going to have to learn the hard way, but even this is for Gods own purposes. That is why i do not stand in condemnation over anyone, in that i do not believe anyone is for ever damned. Though i do believe many will have to suffer the fire of Gods wrath in order to put them on the right path to understanding the full victory of Christ over sin and death and all the works of the devil.

I don't consider any of the dialogue i have on this forum a waste of time. I am sorry that you do. However i am not trying to convince you, i am simply baring witness of what i have come to understand to be true and standing against what i believe to be a false doctrine which many are defending on this forum.



Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-19-2010 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,443,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Did you miss Gen 12? Where Abraham was obedient to the Lord's calling?



No it isn't. Christ is strict about who receives Him, receives salvation, which is eternal life, and that is the hope of Israel, Jew and Gentile.



Where in the heck do you get this stuff from?

2 Tim 3:14-15 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Man must continue living in obedience to God's will in order to remain in God's favor. Yes, he will sin again. When he does, he must again go to God for forgiveness; but to be forgiven he must renew his determination and effort to obey God's will. Faith is essential to salvation. But faith is a command - a work - something required in obedience to God. Therefore obedience is essential to salvation, since faith is a required form of obedience. If one claims that works of obedience are not necessary, he is saying faith is not necessary. If he then says faith is necessary, he contradicts himself.

Galatians 5:6 - What avails in Christ is faith working through love.

James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead like the body without a spirit. But works are necessary to complete faith (to make it perfect from the perfect sacrifice- Heb 10:14). Without obedience, faith is dead and incomplete. The faith that justifies is the faith that leads to works.

Hebrews 10:39; 11:8,30 - Here in these verses are examples to the kind of faith we must have to have salvation. All examples show that men received the blessings of God only after their faith led them to obey His commands and callings. Faith that does not obey is faith that cannot save.

The Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, as well as the doctrine of love, instead of proving obedience is not essential, proves the opposite - faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Obedience is included in justification by faith.

1 John 2:3-6 - To know Him and abide in Him, we must keep his commands, keep his word. If we are not doing so, but still claim to know Him, we are liars, and we don't abide in Him. Note also what happens to liars in Rev. 21:8; John 15:5,6.]

1 John 3:6-8,10 - If we want to be righteous, we must practice righteousness. If we practice sin, we are of the devil.
If we don't practice righteousness, we are not of God.

Obedience is essential. We must be "doers of the word" - James 1:22 and cross reference 1 John 3:24:

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What obedience is required?

We must believe, repent (Acts 2:38), confess (Rom. 10:9,10), be baptized (Acts 22:16; 2:38; Mk. 16:16; I Pet. 3:21; Gal. 3:27), and live a faithful life (I Cor. 15:58)....so no, you are wrong Katonjj.
Okay.. I believe we are talking semantics here but lets explore this further.
(And please don't make fun of my limited cooking knowledge..but I did find the analogy fitting given your occupation )

In a recipe for sugar cookies there are a few basic ingredients: Sugar, flour, egg, butter, and vanilla in the most basic of recipes. Now each ingredient has a different function in binding, texture, flavor, etc. but you can add many things to make the recipe your own. However, they are all called sugar cookies because of the basic ingredients.

Now to me you are saying that salvation is like sugar cookies. You must have the basic ingredients in order to be saved. The recipe is as you listed before. Some denominations have more ingredients in their recipe but the basic ones are always there.

I don't deny that in order to make sugar cookies (or see salvation) you can't ignore the main ingredients, but I am saying that we are not the ones making the recipe nor are the ingredients ours to begin with. People seem to have it backwards IMO. God is the one who has the recipe, after all... it is his recipe. So when God makes the cookies (the instruments being Jesus of course) he makes a cookie especially for each of us (mankind).

This is the part where you think that God only makes so many cookies because you think it is up to mankind to complete the recipe (right?). If the Jews had been able to complete the recipe on their own... would Jesus have been sent? So anyway.. The ingredients are given to us.. I say it is in the form of a completed cookie that takes some time to digest.... You think it comes as ingredients we must obtain ourselves and act upon so that we can make our own cookie...(right?)

YADA YADA.. I could go on and on!

and now I really want some sugar cookies!

The point is that in Romans 4 Paul is saying that God required Abraham to be circumcised. Yet he was counted as righteous beforehand. He was given the cookie first then he SAW his salvation and took action.

Now Paul is telling them that it isn't physical circumcision which was a shadow but circumcision of the heart. In verse 1 Abraham is said to have discovered that it was not by works that one is saved. I believe it is all about the works he TRIED to do toward salvation such as sacrifice his son.. but he (and David) learned that it was God doing the saving.

5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”



Then Paul states that it is not only for the circumcised but for the circumcised of heart.


We see that it is God who circumcises the heart:
Deut. 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.


Therefore all things necessary for salvation come to man from God FREELY and all of it is a gift...a free gift given to the world.


The whole cookie. IMO
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