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Old 05-24-2010, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,289,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Yeah this coming from somone who believes that the poster of the OP is decieved in his believing in dispensational futurism. The same poster who believes you to be decived for being preterist. So did the holy spirit let one or the both of you become decieved then? You two certainly do not believe in the same interpretation of scripture ...
When did I ever say anyone was decieved for believing in futurism? You really need to back off there dear brother, for your assumptions of what I think of other people are definitely uncalled for. You play the same record over and over in regards to your "hidden truth"....this is the deal brother in Christ.....Mike is a Christian, so am I. We believe in different modes of eschatology....so what? Mike meets all the requirements of salvation and so do I, therefore we have much in common, and that is the love for Christ, God in the flesh. So do you, however misguided IMO, but not dicounted from the kingdom....so I really think you need to quit assuming, and begin reading what we actually say, instead of spouting off your jargon as you always do, with little exegesis to back it up.

Mike does a great job in backing up his claims, as do I, but you, and most of the UR crowd here, seem to have trouble dealing with multitudes of scirptures presented to them, and end up littering these threads with ET rhetoric and platonic logic. I side with Mike, even though he is a futirist. I was one once too, but not anymore, and God works His work in each and every one of us, for His purpose, and for His good work, so that those who hear the gospel preached by us Christians, led by Him only, to bring those into the faith.

Eschatology is not a prerequisite for salvation.
Belief in Christ is, and that can only be accomplished in this life.

 
Old 05-24-2010, 10:43 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
When did I ever say anyone was decieved for believing in futurism? You really need to back off there dear brother, for your assumptions of what I think of other people are definitely uncalled for. You play the same record over and over in regards to your "hidden truth"....this is the deal brother in Christ.....Mike is a Christian, so am I. We believe in different modes of eschatology....so what? Mike meets all the requirements of salvation and so do I, therefore we have much in common, and that is the love for Christ, God in the flesh. So do you, however misguided IMO, but not dicounted from the kingdom....so I really think you need to quit assuming, and begin reading what we actually say, instead of spouting off your jargon as you always do, with little exegesis to back it up.

Mike does a great job in backing up his claims, as do I, but you, and most of the UR crowd here, seem to have trouble dealing with multitudes of scirptures presented to them, and end up littering these threads with ET rhetoric and platonic logic. I side with Mike, even though he is a futirist. I was one once too, but not anymore, and God works His work in each and every one of us, for His purpose, and for His good work, so that those who hear the gospel preached by us Christians, led by Him only, to bring those into the faith.

Eschatology is not a prerequisite for salvation.
Belief in Christ is, and that can only be accomplished in this life.
Sciotamicks, perhaps if you would follow the dialogue between mike and myself you would see that i was referring to something Mike had posted about how ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
"the Holy Spirit will never reveal anything to a believer that is contrary to what the Scriptures say".
So one of you either doesn't really have the holy spirit revealing the truth of scripture to you, or both of you don't, according to what he said. My above post was in answer to the irony i am aware of when you are defending his position in this context.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 08:14 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7423
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Which Bible did Abraham,Isaac and Jacob read from ?, these boys certainly had faith in the word of God , so what bible were they reading ?.
Already addressed. Here it is again. From post# 132.


There were several categories of revelation given to Old Testament prophets and others before the existence of Scripture.

1) God revealed Himself and His plan through the spoken Word (Isa. 6:8-10);

2) Dreams (Gen. 15:12; 31:10-13, 24; Num. 12:6; Dan. 10:9);

3) Visions (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 1:1; 6:1);

4) Angelic teaching (Deut. 33:2; Ps. 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19).

Now, in the Church-age, God reveals Himself through the written word. The Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect (mature) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (The word of God).
 
Old 05-25-2010, 08:40 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I am answering the topic ... When i say that we(those of us that believe in UR) believe the scriptures are inspired, and their original meaning was better understood by early native koine greek speaking people who read the orginal letters of the new testament in their native tongue. What they believed the scriptures taught is very different than what Fundamentalist orthodox Christianity thinks them to teach today.

So God was letting the vast majority of Christians in the first 3 centuries be decieved ... ?

And what about before the advent of protestantism, everyone was a Catholic that was a Christian, so did the holy spirit alow Christians during those times to be decieved until the reformation happened?

Your logic does not fall in line with the history and development of Christianity throughout the past 2000 years.
Deception has always existed in the church from the very beginning. False doctrines such as Gnosticism sprang up quite early. The false doctrine of universalism was popularized by Origen. No one believes a lie until they have first rejected the truth. But again. That is not the topic. The topic is that the Bible is the word of God.

And here is another passage that I have not previously provided which states in no uncertain terms that the Bible is the word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 10:55 AM
 
139 posts, read 165,732 times
Reputation: 44
John 5:37-40
And the Father who hath sent me, himself hath testified concerning me; you have never heard his voice, or seen his shape. 38. And you have not his word abiding in you; for whom he hath sent, him you believe not. 39. Search the Scriptures; for you think that you have eternal life in them: and they are they which testify concerning me. 40. And you will not come to me, that you may have life.

i wish peace for your heart and that you rest in truth
if you cannot hear the truth, no one can tell it to u.
blessings
 
Old 05-25-2010, 11:00 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Deception has always existed in the church from the very beginning. False doctrines such as Gnosticism sprang up quite early. The false doctrine of universalism was popularized by Origen. No one believes a lie until they have first rejected the truth. But again. That is not the topic. The topic is that the Bible is the word of God.

And here is another passage that I have not previously provided which states in no uncertain terms that the Bible is the word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

The Alexandrian school was the first school(founded between 43 A.D. or 61 A.D.), and in fact the only school which was founded by the apostles, in particular by the apostle Mark. The school never taught anything different than the restitution of all things. UR was the universally accepted message of the Greek orthodox at the time.

All the other schools came later, three of which held true to the teaching of the doctrine of universal reconciliation ...

Though the writings of Origen, and Clement before him, did put in the histories for posterity sake the teachings of the doctrine of UR, they were not the inventors of it in the faith.

It was only some years later under the criticism of emperor Justinian and some of the Latin fathers that Origen alone was brought up on charges of heresy due to his teaching of the apokatastasis(Act 3:21 - the "restitution" Greek apokatastasis "of all things", spoken of by the apostle Paul) among other things ... And this witch hunt was spurned on by the recent adoption of the Christian faith by the empire of Rome(380 A.D.).

So then we see the influence of the Latin imperial leaders of the church begin to change Christianity into a war mongering tool of the empire which was used to control the population by means of the doctrine of ET established by Tertullian of Carthage and later even more fully by the likes of Eusebius, Justinian and Augustine, and to conquer foreign lands as if by divine right and by divine authority ...


Again, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 is referring to the message of the rhema, and is not in any sense referring to the graphe ... it is referring to the spoken word of the apostles to the people, as God inspired them to speak.

This is a theological difference between the graphe and the rhema ... It is not as if Paul had handed out the canon of authorized KJV of the bible we have today to the Thessalonians ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-25-2010 at 11:14 AM..
 
Old 05-25-2010, 03:17 PM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Alexandrian school was the first school(founded between 43 A.D. or 61 A.D.), and in fact the only school which was founded by the apostles, in particular by the apostle Mark. The school never taught anything different than the restitution of all things. UR was the universally accepted message of the Greek orthodox at the time.

All the other schools came later, three of which held true to the teaching of the doctrine of universal reconciliation ...

Though the writings of Origen, and Clement before him, did put in the histories for posterity sake the teachings of the doctrine of UR, they were not the inventors of it in the faith.

It was only some years later under the criticism of emperor Justinian and some of the Latin fathers that Origen alone was brought up on charges of heresy due to his teaching of the apokatastasis(Act 3:21 - the "restitution" Greek apokatastasis "of all things", spoken of by the apostle Paul) among other things ... And this witch hunt was spurned on by the recent adoption of the Christian faith by the empire of Rome(380 A.D.).

So then we see the influence of the Latin imperial leaders of the church begin to change Christianity into a war mongering tool of the empire which was used to control the population by means of the doctrine of ET established by Tertullian of Carthage and later even more fully by the likes of Eusebius, Justinian and Augustine, and to conquer foreign lands as if by divine right and by divine authority ...
Again. The topic is not universalism.

Quote:
Again, 1 Thessalonians 2:13[/b] is referring to the message of the rhema, and is not in any sense referring to the graphe ... it is referring to the spoken word of the apostles to the people, as God inspired them to speak.
Pauls ministry was not only spoken, but consisted of written letters which were circulated to the various churches and which were permanently preserved in the written Canon of Scripture, recording for all time and for all generations of the church to follow, the word of God. Without the written word of God there would be no knowledge of God. God is not speaking today as He spoke to the prophets of old, including the Apostles. God does not speak to pastors today. Since the completion of the written Canon of Scripture, they are the means by which God communicates His word. The word of God. The Holy Spirit does not reveal anything to anyone which is contrary to the written Scriptures.


Quote:
This is a theological difference between the graphe and the rhema ... It is not as if Paul had handed out the canon of authorized KJV of the bible we have today to the Thessalonians ...


The KJV or any other translation is not an issue. The New Testament Scriptures were being written at the time and the letters circulated among the churches. During the pre-Canon era, (before the last book of the New Testament was written) the Apostles and the temporary spiritual gifts were in operation to facilitate the communication of the Church-age doctrines.

The word of God is recorded in writing.

I have said a few times now, that Jesus Christ is the living Word, and the Bible is the written word!

The word of God whether spoken or written is the word of God.

With regard to Rhema and graphe and Logos...

Excerpt #1:

Quote:
The rhema of the prophets that the New Testament disciples knew in those days were written, yet they are referred to as that which was spoken by the prophets. In this case rhema can be seen as referring to that which is written. Although the prophets spoke those words, to the people that Peter wrote to, they were written. See also Jude 1:17.

Excerpt #2:

Quote:
Ro 10:8 "But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);" The word of faith being preached is the gospel. The gospel today is part of the written Scriptures. Should it not then be known as the logos? During the early years of preaching the gospel, it was not written down yet, but the gospel is just as well contained in the OT as it is in the NT. Anyway, the word of faith is preached here and not written.

The WORD of God: RHEMA vs. LOGOS - Its meaning and uses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Excerpt:

Quote:
So this week, let us seek the Logos in the graphe. How can we do this? We seek Jesus through the words He spoke (in the bible) and through His ordained Ministers in His Church (rhema). The Holy Spirit who guides them, guides us all “to all truth” (John 16:13). And this will lead us to be obedient, and therefore holy.
Being Obedient…Being Holy: I Peter 1:13-25 « a word on The Word
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Excerpt:

Quote:
it is written (grapho in the perfect tense = it stands written in the OT prophecy Isaiah 45:23 and is a permanent binding irrevocable record!), “As I live, says the Lord, every (pas = all with no exception!) knee shall bow to Me, and every (pas = all with no exception!) tongue shall give praise (exomologeo = conveys the thought of an open, frank, and full confession. The middle voice = reflects each person's definite personal involvement in this confession) to God.” (Ro 14:11-note)
Romans 10:8-11 Commentary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

God's word is His word whether spoken or recorded in writing.

Here again is a portion of the first post.

It is important to understand what inspiration means. The Bible declares itself to be inspired of God.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

The principle of divine Inspiration is derived from the Greek word Theopneustos which means God-breathed. The Scriptures are literally God breathed. This involves both inhale and exhale. In the inhale, God the Holy Spirit communicated to the human authors, God's complete and connected thought. In the exhale, the human writers of the Scriptures permanently recorded in their own vocabulary, and in their own style, and without waiving their human intelligence, their personal feelings, their personality, or individuality, God's complete message to man recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of the Bible.

As the mind of Christ, the Bible existed before it was recorded in written form. It existed in eternity past.
-------------------------

There were several categories of revelation given to Old Testament prophets and others before the existence of Scripture.

1) God revealed Himself and His plan through the spoken Word (Isa. 6:8-10);

2) Dreams (Gen. 15:12; 31:10-13, 24; Num. 12:6; Dan. 10:9);

3) Visions (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 1:1; 6:1);

4) Angelic teaching (Deut. 33:2; Ps. 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19).

Now, in the Church-age, God reveals Himself through the written word. The Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect (mature) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (The word of God).


In answering Satan and resisting His temptations, Jesus quoted scripture.

Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, ''It is written (Gegraptai), 'Man shall not live on bread alone, But on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Jesus was quoting an Old Testament passage from Deut 8:3.

The word that proceeded out of the mouth of God was recorded in the written Scriptures. The Bible is the word of God.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 03:48 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,230 posts, read 19,996,777 times
Reputation: 2108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Already addressed. Here it is again. From post# 132.


There were several categories of revelation given to Old Testament prophets and others before the existence of Scripture.

1) God revealed Himself and His plan through the spoken Word (Isa. 6:8-10);

2) Dreams (Gen. 15:12; 31:10-13, 24; Num. 12:6; Dan. 10:9);

3) Visions (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 1:1; 6:1);

4) Angelic teaching (Deut. 33:2; Ps. 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19).

Now, in the Church-age, God reveals Himself through the written word. The Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect (mature) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (The word of God).
25 'These things I have spoken to you, remaining with you, 26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

Did the Holy Spirit give the disciples a bible each ?, or did the Holy Spirit bring to rememberance the things they were taught.

The Holy Spirit makes all the difference in a believers life , the believer can never read another scripture again in his life (and not be effected) , but take away the abiding Holy Spirit and he's undone.

The believer can live by the unction that abides in him and by what God has done for us

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.1 John 2 verse 20


This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;Hebrews 10 verse 16


If i as a believer had never heard the verse "Bless them that curse you" , then someone shared this verse with me, i would know it to be the truth by the Holy Spirit that abides in me.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 04:52 PM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
25 'These things I have spoken to you, remaining with you, 26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

Did the Holy Spirit give the disciples a bible each ?, or did the Holy Spirit bring to rememberance the things they were taught.
Again. From previous posts...

There were several categories of revelation given to Old Testament prophets and others before the existence of Scripture.

1) God revealed Himself and His plan through the spoken Word (Isa. 6:8-10);

2) Dreams (Gen. 15:12; 31:10-13, 24; Num. 12:6; Dan. 10:9);

3) Visions (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 1:1; 6:1);

4) Angelic teaching (Deut. 33:2; Ps. 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19).

Now, in the Church-age, God reveals Himself through the written word. The Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect (mature) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (The word of God).


It is important to understand what inspiration means. The Bible declares itself to be inspired of God.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

The principle of divine Inspiration is derived from the Greek word Theopneustos which means God-breathed. The Scriptures are literally God breathed. This involves both inhale and exhale. In the inhale, God the Holy Spirit communicated to the human authors, God's complete and connected thought. In the exhale, the human writers of the Scriptures permanently recorded in their own vocabulary, and in their own style, and without waiving their human intelligence, their personal feelings, their personality, or individuality, God's complete message to man recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of the Bible

The Holy Spirit communicated to the human authors of the Bible God's complete message to man so that all generations would have His word.




Quote:
The Holy Spirit makes all the difference in a believers life , the believer can never read another scripture again in his life (and not be effected) , but take away the abiding Holy Spirit and he's undone.
This has already been addressed a few times now on this and the other thread. And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent. The filling ministry of the Spirit is a different ministry and is removed because of sin and restored through the principle of 1 John 1:9.

And you're wrong about not needing to study the scriptures. Spiritual growth demands consistant study. If a believer stops taking in doctrine, he loses spiritual momentum. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Holy Spirit only makes use of the doctrine that has been transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer. And it is the Holy Spirit who enables that transfer to occur when the believer studies and believes that which has been studied.


Quote:
The believer can live by the unction that abides in him and by what God has done for us

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.1 John 2 verse 20.
http://bible.cc/1_john/2-20.htm


Quote:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;Hebrews 10 verse 16
Hebrews 10:16 doesn't refer to the church-age. It refers to the Millennium. The kingdom age. The promise is to Israel. Compare with Jeremiah 31:33.34.

Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. 17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I wll forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

Quote:
If i as a believer had never heard the verse "Bless them that curse you" , then someone shared this verse with me, i would know it to be the truth by the Holy Spirit that abides in me.
And where did it originally come from? Where do you think the person who shared it with you got it. The Bible is the recorded word of God. God's message to man is set down in writing. No matter how many people share a passage before it gets shared with you, it originally came from the Bible which is the word of God.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-25-2010 at 05:06 PM..
 
Old 05-25-2010, 05:58 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,230 posts, read 19,996,777 times
Reputation: 2108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again. From previous posts...

There were several categories of revelation given to Old Testament prophets and others before the existence of Scripture.

It seems to me that you are saying that God is a bible , i believe He's the Author of the scriptures that testify of His Son the word of God . Hebrews 1 verse 2 says " Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son , His Son is the living word .

So was what God spoke before the existance of the scripture not the word of God ?.

How come you cannot see that there has been time through history where God has spoken before it was ever recorded .

We have something far more amazing than what the OT saints had and yet you want to limit the Lord to only being able to speak to us by the written word.

The scriptures do one thing for me and that is testify of who Jesus is .John 5 verse 39.

I find it hard to believe Mike that you believe the Holy Spirit teaches us .

Last edited by pcamps; 05-25-2010 at 06:14 PM..
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