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Old 05-22-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837

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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I think the problem MANY of us have is that traditional Christianity rarely shows the powerful LOVE that Jesus had for His "enemies." Some of us have just had ENOUGH of the judging and condemning that goes on in Chrisianity! Enough of the wars and divisions. Enough of the cliques and "I'm
interpreting this right, you are interpreting that wrong" behavior.

Yes, follow His commandments!! But LOVE was what hung on the LAW and the prophets!!

Traditional religion is tiresome without love. It wears you out and beats others down. Jesus said you would know them by their LOVE for one another. Christianity has brought anything BUT love, joy, and peace around the world.

In my opinion, the focus has ALWAYS been on all those other attributes of God that you named. At what point can we look back over the history of Christianity and say, THAT was the LOVE that Christ was showing to the world!!

We have done NO better than the Jews at this love thing (I've been reading the Old Testament). They did NOT understand what God's love was about, and neither does most of Christianity.
I understand what God's love IS all about...and I've been trying with all of my heart to get you all to understand it as well...

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of My mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain: My speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain uopn the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass.
Because I will publish the Name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He IS the Rock, His work is perfect: for ALL HIS WAYS ARE JUDGEMENT: A God of TRUTH, and WITHOUT INIQUITY, JUST and RIGHT IS He.
THEY [disobedient unbeliever's/the wicked] have corrupted themsleves, THEIR spot is not the spot of His children: THEY are a perverse and crooked generation...

...THEY provoked Him to JEALOUSY with strange gods, with abominations provoked THEY Him to ANGER.
THEY sacrificed unto devils, not to God: to gods whom they knew not, to new gods, that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindfull, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
And when the LORD saw it, He ABHORRED THEM, because of the provocing of His sons [repentant/born-again/obedient believer's], and of His daughters [repentant/born-again/obedient believer's].
And He said, "I will hide My face from THEM [disobedient unbeliever's], I will see what their end shall be: for THEY are a froward generation, children [saved possibly, but not truly repentant/born-again into the character of Christ] in whom is no faith [obedient faith = still living in sin]...

...For THEY are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in THEM.
O that THEY were wise, that THEY understood this, that THEY would consider the latter end...

...To Me belongeth VENGEANCE, and RECOMPENSE [just-rewards], THEIR foot shall slide in due time: for THE DAY OF THEIR CALAMITY IS AT HAND, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL COME UPON THEM, MAKE HASTE...

...See now, that I, even I AM He, and there is no god with Me; I KILL, I MAKE ALIVE: I WOUND, AND I HEAL: NEITHER IS THERE ANY THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND,...

...IF I WET MY GLITTERING SWORD, AND MINE HAND TAKE HOLD ON JUDGEMENT, I WILL RENDER VENGEANCE TO MINE ENEMIES, AND I WILL REWARD THEM THAT HATE ME.

I WILL MAKE MINE ARROWS DRUNK WITH BLOOD, (AND MY SWORD SHALL DEVOUR FLESH) AND THAT WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SLAIN, AND OF THE CAPTIVES, FROM THE BEGINNING OF REVENGES UPON THE ENEMIE...

...AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, SET YOUR HEARTS UNTO ALL THE WORDS WHICH I TESTIFY AMONG YOU THIS DAY, WHICH YE SHALL COMMAND YOUR CHILDREN TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL THE "WORDS" (TEN COMMANDMENTS) OF THIS LAW.

FOR IT IS NOT A VAIN THING FOR YOU: BECAUSE IT IS YOUR LIFE, AND THROUGH THIS THING YE SHALL PROLONG YOUR DAYS IN THE LAND WHITHER YE GO OVER THE JORDAN TO POSSESS IT [THE PROMISED LAND...HEAVEN].
Deuteronomy 32.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-22-2010 at 06:52 PM..
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Old 05-22-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Verna... so you really have never read those verses about God being love?
I do not read it as most do...my motive is to stretch understandings of WHAT ALL THAT God IS.
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Old 05-22-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I understand what God's love IS all about...and I've been trying with all of my heart to get you all to understand it as well...

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of My mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain: My speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain uopn the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass.
Because I will publish the Name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He IS the Rock, His work is perfect: for ALL HIS WAYS ARE JUDGEMENT: A God of TRUTH, and WITHOUT INIQUITY, JUST and RIGHT IS He.
THEY [disobedient unbeliever's/the wicked] have corrupted themsleves, THEIR spot is not the spot of His children: THEY are a perverse and crooked generation...

...THEY provoked Him to JEALOUSY with strange gods, with abominations provoked THEY Him to ANGER.
THEY sacrificed unto devils, not to God: to gods whom they knew not, to new gods, that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindfull, and hast
forgotten God that formed thee.

And when the LORD saw it, He ABHORRED THEM, because of the
provocing of His sons [repentant/born-again/obedient believer's], and of His daughters [repentant/born-again/obedient believer's].

And He said, "I will hide My face from THEM [disobedient unbeliever's], I will see what their end shall be: for THEY are a froward generation, children [saved possibly, but not truly repentant/born-again into the character of Christ] in whom is no faith [obedient faith = still
living in sin]...


...For THEY are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any
understanding in THEM.

O that THEY were wise, that THEY understood this, that THEY would consider the latter end...

...To Me belongeth VENGEANCE, and RECOMPENSE [just-rewards], THEIR foot shall slide in due time: for THE DAY OF THEIR CALAMITY IS AT HAND, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL COME UPON THEM, MAKE HASTE...

...See now, that I, even I AM He, and there is no god with
Me; I KILL, I MAKE ALIVE: I WOUND, AND I HEAL: NEITHER IS THERE ANY THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND,...


...IF I WET MY GLITTERING SWORD, AND MINE HAND TAKE HOLD ON JUDGEMENT, I WILL RENDER
VENGEANCE TO MINE ENEMIES
, AND I WILL REWARD THEM THAT HATE ME.


I WILL MAKE MINE ARROWS DRUNK WITH BLOOD,
(AND MY SWORD SHALL DEVOUR FLESH) AND THAT WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SLAIN, AND OF THE CAPTIVES, FROM THE BEGINNING OF REVENGES UPON THE ENEMIE
...


...AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, SET YOUR HEARTS UNTO
ALL THE WORDS WHICH I TESTIFY AMONG YOU THIS DAY, WHICH YE SHALL COMMAND YOUR CHILDREN TO
OBSERVE TO DO ALL THE "WORDS" (TEN COMMANDMENTS) OF THIS LAW.


FOR IT IS NOT A VAIN THING FOR YOU: BECAUSE IT IS YOUR LIFE, AND THROUGH THIS THING YE SHALL PROLONG YOUR DAYS IN THE LAND WHITHER YE GO OVER THE JORDAN TO POSSESS IT [THE PROMISED LAND...HEAVEN].

[font=Georgia]In Christ's love...In His truth, [/FONT
Verna.
I don't think you understand. Why did Jonah not want to go preach to Nineveh? Why did the disciples want to bring fire down from heaven, and what did Jesus say to them???

What LOVE has Christianity brought to this planet?

Remind me again what the fruits of the Spirit are?? Christianity has spit on love, just as the Jews did.

They do NOT know what love is or what it does to a person. You CANNOT change a soul by threatenig them, but, you can most certainly change a soul with the most powerful LOVE in the UNIVERSE!

Do you think the Jews understood? Do you think the Christians understand? Do you think the Muslims do?
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Old 05-22-2010, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I don't think you understand. Why did Jonah not want to go preach to Nineveh? Why did the disciples want to bring fire down from heaven, and what did Jesus say to them???

What LOVE has Christianity brought to this planet?

Remind me again what the fruits of the Spirit are?? Christianity has spit on love, just as the Jews did.

They do NOT know what love is or what it does to a person. You CANNOT change a soul by threatenig them, but, you can most certainly change a soul with the most powerful LOVE in the UNIVERSE!

Do you think the Jews understood? Do you think the Christians understand? Do you think the Muslims do?
I don't think you understand...respectfully.

The love that "Christianity" has brought to this planet? Well...since "christianity" can come under any one of a thousand definitions...this individual understanding of what "love" IS, could be any kind...even a kind that IS not the kind of love that IS the love of God...<<<"This IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS."...and if you teach anyone other than this you will be called the "least" in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, I agree..."christianity" most definately has spit on the True Love of God.

So, who has the most powerful love in the universe that can change a soul other than God?...so..why hasn't His most powerful love changed all souls?

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
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Old 05-22-2010, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I don't think you understand...respectfully.

The love that "Christianity" has brought to this planet? Well...since "christianity" can come under any one of a thousand definitions...this individual understanding of what "love" IS, could be any kind...even a kind that IS not the kind of love that IS the love of God...<<<"This IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS."...and if you teach anyone other than this you will be called the "least" in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, I agree..."christianity" most definately has spit on the True Love of God.

So, who has the most powerful love in the universe that can change a soul other than God?...so..why hasn't His most powerful love changed all souls?

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
God IS LOVE. So, we humans were supposed to learn, and then SHOW, it to others. God was supposed to work through US!! He is spirit and we are
flesh. We only understand physical things. We don't do well with the spiritual.

We were supposed to show that God is love through our physical interactions with each other and then our spirits would understand.

Love God and love your neighbor.

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The Pharisees wanted to know EXACTLY who their neighbor was! EVERYBODY on this planet is your neighbor, Jesus basically said.

How did the Jews, and then the Christians, show God's love to the world?

I believe God concluded ALL in unbelief (belief in Him and His LOVE) so that He may have MERCY on all.


(I also understand God gets ticked off, to say the least. But, if His mercy and love outweigh those attributes, He will get His glory in the end. Not many (probably, none) can run from the light forever. It WILL engulf everything in the end.

Last edited by herefornow; 05-22-2010 at 08:08 PM..
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Old 05-22-2010, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Love God and love your neighbor.

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Amen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
The Pharisees wanted to know EXACTLY who their neighbor was! EVERYBODY on this planet is your neighbor, Jesus basically said.
...and...WHERE...? basically...did Jesus say this? Scripture please...
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
How did the Jews, and then the Christians, show God's love to the world?
...most...?...pathetically...I imagine. Same as today, probably worse now though. Like you said earlier (and I quote), "Christianity has spit on love, just as the Jews did."...however, if you ask me how the disciples then showed God's love?...or how a disciple today should show God's love?...I would say in truth..and by example of Who Jesus IS within them...diciplined/obedient to the will of our Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
I believe God concluded ALL in unbelief (belief in Him and His LOVE) so that He may have MERCY on all.
I am sorry.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
(I also understand God gets ticked off, to say the least. But, if His mercy and love outweigh those attributes, He will get His glory in the end. Not many (probably, none) can run from the light forever. It WILL engulf everything in the end.
EVERYTHING IS FOR HIS GLORY...INCLUDING HIS JUDGEMENT...HIS WRATH...HIS VENGEANCE...HIS RECOMPENCE>>>EVERYTHING!
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Old 05-22-2010, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Amen.

...and...WHERE...? basically...did Jesus say this? Scripture please...
...most...?...pathetically...I imagine. Same as today, probably worse now though. Like you said earlier (and I quote), "Christianity has spit on love, just as the Jews did."...however, if you ask me how the disciples then showed God's love?...or how a disciple today should show God's love?...I would say in truth..and by example of Who Jesus IS within them...diciplined/obedient to the will of our Father.
I am sorry.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

EVERYTHING IS FOR HIS GLORY...INCLUDING HIS JUDGEMENT...HIS WRATH...HIS VENGEANCE...HIS RECOMPENCE>>>EVERYTHING!



Verna's question about loving EVERYBODY on the planet: *Have you forgotten the parable of the Good Samaritan? *The Pharisee wanted to know WHO his neighbor was? *Remember? *What do you think that parable was all about?

Verna being sorry: *I'm not sure why you posted you were sorry about the Bible verse I quoted.

And, yes, even God's "wrath" and "vengeance" is for His glory. *Except: *He is NOT HUMAN!

Below are some contrasts between how Jesus spoke with the Religious vs Heathen


L. Ray Smith - You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!



The Heathen had more FAITH in God's power and LOVE than the Religious

Below is how Jesus spoke to the religious:


"But WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN…

…THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… you DEVOUR WIDOW’S HOUSES… you shall receive the greater damnation.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…

WOE unto you, ye BLIND GUIDES…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You… have omitted… JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH…

You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS.

You BLIND PHARISEES…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS… and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!… you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers.

You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES… you KILL AND CRUCIFY… you SCOURGE in your synagogues… Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!




On the very few occasions where Jesus even spoke to a non-Jew, He often expressed the greatest admiration for their faith, rather than condemnation for being Gentiles. After all, how much faith did Jesus find among His Own people?

This is how He spoke to everyone else:

"I must be about my Father’s business… I must preach the Kingdom of God, for therefore am I sent… God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: Who went about doing good and healing… Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men… Why call Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God…

Rejoice and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven… You are the light of the world... Love your enemies… I will come and heal him… the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head… Daughter, be of good comfort… Son, be of good cheer; your sins be forgiven you… I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life…

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness… Peace I leave with you… love ye one another, as I have loved you… Neither do I condemn you… He departed again into a mountain Himself alone, to pray… Be not afraid only believe… You are My friends… You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself…

For the Father Himself loves you… In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit… I have spoken openly to the world… Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved… I have compassion on the multitude… Jesus wept…

Let the little children come to me… Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest…

With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you… he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel… O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings… And when they [and Jesus] had sung an hymn…

Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from Me: nevertheless not My will, but Thine, be done… And being in agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as if were great drops of blood falling down to the ground… Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do… IT IS FINISHED… they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread, Jesus said to them, COME AND DINE" (Excerpts from the Gospels).

Jesus identified with our humanity when He said: "Simon, Simon… Martha, Martha…" Jesus was profoundly human. He was after all, the humble servant as the Son of man. But He was also the wise and powerful Son of God.*

Jesus spoke gently with the meek, but His speech EXPLODED with the wicked.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Verna's question about loving EVERYBODY on the planet: *Have you forgotten the parable of the Good Samaritan? *The Pharisee wanted to know WHO his neighbor was? *Remember? *What do you think that parable was all about?

Verna being sorry: *I'm not sure why you posted you were sorry about the Bible verse I quoted.

And, yes, even God's "wrath" and "vengeance" is for His glory. *Except: *He is NOT HUMAN!

Below are some contrasts between how Jesus spoke with the Religious vs Heathen


L. Ray Smith - You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!



The Heathen had more FAITH in God's power and LOVE than the Religious

Below is how Jesus spoke to the religious:


"But WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN…

…THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… you DEVOUR WIDOW’S HOUSES… you shall receive the greater damnation.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…

WOE unto you, ye BLIND GUIDES…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You… have omitted… JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH…

You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS.

You BLIND PHARISEES…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS… and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!… you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers.

You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES… you KILL AND CRUCIFY… you SCOURGE in your synagogues… Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!




On the very few occasions where Jesus even spoke to a non-Jew, He often expressed the greatest admiration for their faith, rather than condemnation for being Gentiles. After all, how much faith did Jesus find among His Own people?

This is how He spoke to everyone else:

"I must be about my Father’s business… I must preach the Kingdom of God, for therefore am I sent… God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: Who went about doing good and healing… Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men… Why call Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God…

Rejoice and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven… You are the light of the world... Love your enemies… I will come and heal him… the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head… Daughter, be of good comfort… Son, be of good cheer; your sins be forgiven you… I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life…

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness… Peace I leave with you… love ye one another, as I have loved you… Neither do I condemn you… He departed again into a mountain Himself alone, to pray… Be not afraid only believe… You are My friends… You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself…

For the Father Himself loves you… In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit… I have spoken openly to the world… Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved… I have compassion on the multitude… Jesus wept…

Let the little children come to me… Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest…

With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you… he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel… O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings… And when they [and Jesus] had sung an hymn…

Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from Me: nevertheless not My will, but Thine, be done… And being in agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as if were great drops of blood falling down to the ground… Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do… IT IS FINISHED… they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread, Jesus said to them, COME AND DINE" (Excerpts from the Gospels).

Jesus identified with our humanity when He said: "Simon, Simon… Martha, Martha…" Jesus was profoundly human. He was after all, the humble servant as the Son of man. But He was also the wise and powerful Son of God.*

Jesus spoke gently with the meek, but His speech EXPLODED with the wicked.
...oh dear...whatever...and your point is?... I don't get all this rant.

...did you find the scripture where Jesus "basically"said that, '...everyone on this planet is our neighbor.' "...?

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...oh dear...whatever...and your point is?... I don't get all this rant.

...did you find the scripture where Jesus "basically"said that, '...everyone on this planet is our neighbor.' "...?

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.



Sure, Verna: Please explain the parable of the Good Samaritan. WHO is my neighbor?
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Sure, Verna: Please explain the parable of the Good Samaritan. WHO is my neighbor?
You first.
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