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Old 05-24-2010, 10:44 AM
 
37,611 posts, read 25,300,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
You still fight for your beliefs, yet wavered in them, to the point of changing them. You say you never believed in ET, yet went the way of Universalism? Hopefully, you are not done searching yet.

Cherry picking verses to make a doctrine is all Universalism is. Mankind has been doing this for centuries. Put it all together, from Genesis to Revelation.

Yes, the wicked shall be destroyed. The Word testifies of this. Over and over, and over. They are not somehow made new through the Fire of God. The Fire consumes, period.
Time to reorient your understanding of what YOU are, Hot.Everything you produce consciously when awake is automatically a permanent part of you. If what you produce today is evil . . . that part must be addressed before you can be with God. If yesterday you were not evil . . . that part will be fine. If half of a day you are evil . . that half will need to be addressed. get the picture. Now accumulate that over ALL the days of your conscious existence. That permanent patchwork YOU must be addressed upon your rebirth as Spirit. Those parts that you addressed in repentance are removed by Jesus' grace. Those that you forgot need to be addressed. Those that you did not repent of need to be addressed. But those parts of you that were fine will remain. This is what is meant when the fire will consume . . . but you will be saved. Only the DROSS of your conscious life will be destroyed . . . leaving the "refined" you. Depending upon our relationship with Jesus and our spiritual development in Christ . . . the removal of the dross "days or half days . . . or whatever" . . . will have differing degrees of consequence and unpleasantness . . . and we will end up with 30 fold, 60 fold, or a hundred fold, etc. We will reap what we sow . . . but we are ALL saved by Jesus already.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,208,545 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why do murdereds do as they are told in a courtroom? Why do they sit when they are told to sit and stand when they are told to stand? Take that respect for authority and multiply it by a million, and you will undertstand why every knee will bend at the judgement.
In a court the accused are not threatened with everlasting torture and a predetermined absolute sentence.

If God can force them to repsect him and glorify him and basically say uncle before he throws them into everlasting torture, he can change their heart and bring them into the fold as well ...

The word used in the verses that speak of all things confessing Christ lord is ...

Quote:
exomologeō - confess

1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G5547&t=KJV
Lets see what the vines says aboit it ...

Quote:
<B>Confess, Confession [Verb]
exomologeo ek, "out," intensive, and homologeo, and accordingly stronger than homologeo, "to confess forth," i.e., "freely, openly," is used
</B>
(a) "of a public acknowledgment or confession of sins," <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Matt+3:6">Matt_3:6; Mark_1:5; Acts_19:18; James_5:16;
(b) "to profess or acknowledge openly," <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Matt+11:25">Matt_11:25 (translated "thank," but indicating the fuller idea); Php_2:11 (some mss. have it in Rev_3:5: see homologeo);
(c) "to confess by way of celebrating, giving praise," <A href="http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Rom+14:11">Rom_14:11; Rom_15:9. In Luke_10:21, it is translated "I thank," the true meaning being "I gladly acknowledge." In Luke_22:6 it signifies to consent (RV), for AV, "promised." See CONSENT, PROMISE, THANK.
See also : exomologeo in other topics

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=537#A2 - broken link)

So every tongue shall give thanks that Christ is lord by implication of the power of the word. Or every tongue shall glady acknowledge that Christ is lord. There is absolutely no indication within the language of anyone being made to confess out of fear or under duress ... The language implies celebration and the giving of thanks as well as the confession of sins. And the confession of sins is part of justification ...

1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-24-2010 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,386,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I agree the deceit is in the doctrines. Of both ET and Universalism. Both are the extremes of what man wants. Et is the doctrine of control. Men have been using this control over the flocks for thousands of years. Universalism is the opposite. It is the doctrine of ANARCHY. Without control, Laws, or constraints. It tells the evil and wicked unrepentant that they shall be saved, eventually. So, wicked is, as wicked does. Word.
When you completely understand the LOVE OF GOD, there IS no anarchy!!

Remember the prodigal son??

When he was tired of the partying, "drugs," and chaos and finally figured out what true love is, he came home!
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
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Who is the IPA ? , the only IPA i know of is the Indian Pale Ale i used to enjoy at one of my local pubs.
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:43 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,377,660 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Hot, as long as I've been on this board you have been the most wishy-washy person I've ever seen in changing your belief system. I don't EVEN want to hear it. That's definitely the pot calling the kettle black and you yourself we're leaning towards UR at one point. Now you've decided to believe in annihilation......at least UR has scriptural support whereas annihilation has zero!!

You were headed in the right direction when you were investigating UR....I think you might need to go back and start all over again.
That is because I was, and am still, searching out what the differences between the doctrines of man, and the Word of God. Both could not be right. Look at the world, and this is evident.

So, is it called wishy washy to travel down the road towards God called life? There are turns that must be explored? But the Spirit always led me back down the right and True path of Christ, and continues to this day. Even if these turns were half-truths that needed to simply be explored, so that when the Truth is revealed, it is certain. Only a willfully ignorant person would believe everything without searching it out.

The wicked are destroyed. Their names are blotted out forever. Ps 9:5

I did just not head down the UR road. I defended it as my own. Until the Light went off. And you know what caused the questioning of this doctrine to come into play? Jesus' own Words.

I wish that ALL would be saved. But, even if there is a 99% chance of salvation,,there is still a problem. Jesus said this to the religious leaders of His day. The unforgivable sin. Because if there is just 1 sin that cannot be forgiven, then UR loses it's wholeness.
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:47 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,377,660 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Time to reorient your understanding of what YOU are, Hot.Everything you produce consciously when awake is automatically a permanent part of you. If what you produce today is evil . . . that part must be addressed before you can be with God. If yesterday you were not evil . . . that part will be fine. If half of a day you are evil . . that half will need to be addressed. get the picture. Now accumulate that over ALL the days of your conscious existence. That permanent patchwork YOU must be addressed upon your rebirth as Spirit. Those parts that you addressed in repentance are removed by Jesus' grace. Those that you forgot need to be addressed. Those that you did not repent of need to be addressed. But those parts of you that were fine will remain. This is what is meant when the fire will consume . . . but you will be saved. Only the DROSS of your conscious life will be destroyed . . . leaving the "refined" you. Depending upon our relationship with Jesus and our spiritual development in Christ . . . the removal of the dross "days or half days . . . or whatever" . . . will have differing degrees of consequence and unpleasantness . . . and we will end up with 30 fold, 60 fold, or a hundred fold, etc. We will reap what we sow . . . but we are ALL saved by Jesus already.
I can agree with this Mystic. But, Paul was talking TO believers. He wasn't writing letters to an open air public, like the Romans, needing to explain what each meaning of his words were.
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:48 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,414,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
That is because I was, and am still, searching out what the differences between the doctrines of man, and the Word of God. Both could not be right. Look at the world, and this is evident.

So, is it called wishy washy to travel down the road towards God called life? There are turns that must be explored? But the Spirit always led me back down the right and True path of Christ, and continues to this day. Even if these turns were half-truths that needed to simply be explored, so that when the Truth is revealed, it is certain. Only a willfully ignorant person would believe everything without searching it out.

The wicked are destroyed. Their names are blotted out forever. Ps 9:5

I did just not head down the UR road. I defended it as my own. Until the Light went off. And you know what caused the questioning of this doctrine to come into play? Jesus' own Words.

I wish that ALL would be saved. But, even if there is a 99% chance of salvation,,there is still a problem. Jesus said this to the religious leaders of His day. The unforgivable sin. Because if there is just 1 sin that cannot be forgiven, then UR loses it's wholeness.
Hi Hotin,

If this helps, I believe in UR and I believe the wicked are destroyed. There will be no wicked people in the end. Saul does not make it, only Paul does.

As for the "unforgivable" sin, it is only "unforgivable" (scripture never actually calls it "unforgivable") in this age and the next. That has been covered elsewhere if you want to search it out.

Be well...
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:58 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,690,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post

I did just not head down the UR road. I defended it as my own. Until the Light went off. And you know what caused the questioning of this doctrine to come into play? Jesus' own Words.

Of course the light went off, just like the light goes off in anyone who defends a doctrine for the sake of a doctrine.

This is why churches are full of spiritually dead people. People confuse the light being on based on their emotions. When the emotional roller coaster no longer gives them the up high, they either continue based on the "what if" of fear, or they just don't really care any more. Both are spiritually dead.

But what you have said doesn't mean the basic concepts of what God will do for mankind is untrue.

God will save all mankind, and your belief is not what fuels that promise, your belief is a result of it.

Spiritual life is knowing that whether you feel anything about it or not.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:01 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,760,797 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
That is because I was, and am still, searching out what the differences between the doctrines of man, and the Word of God. Both could not be right. Look at the world, and this is evident.

So, is it called wishy washy to travel down the road towards God called life? There are turns that must be explored? But the Spirit always led me back down the right and True path of Christ, and continues to this day. Even if these turns were half-truths that needed to simply be explored, so that when the Truth is revealed, it is certain. Only a willfully ignorant person would believe everything without searching it out.

The wicked are destroyed. Their names are blotted out forever. Ps 9:5

I did just not head down the UR road. I defended it as my own. Until the Light went off. And you know what caused the questioning of this doctrine to come into play? Jesus' own Words.

I wish that ALL would be saved. But, even if there is a 99% chance of salvation,,there is still a problem. Jesus said this to the religious leaders of His day. The unforgivable sin. Because if there is just 1 sin that cannot be forgiven, then UR loses it's wholeness.
No there is absolutely nothing wrong with searching......that's how I got to where I am now. I was defending myself because of what you said and pointing out that it seemed every time you came back to the board you had a different belief and defended it to the nines. Seems a little wishy-washy to me. But whatever, that's your choice.

You don't have to "wish" that all would be saved.......they will be. You know that "forever" doesn't mean eternally just as well as I do. And that the unforgivable sin does not mean "forever"......someone's name may be blotted out for the ages of the ages but that does not mean forever. UR is whole and complete in it's belief that all will be reconciled. It's just a matter of when for each individual.

I don't fault you in any way Hot for what you believe, so don't fault me for what I believe to be the truth. You know that I will be defending what I believe no matter what. And that's the way the ball bounces.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:41 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,569,887 times
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I think the church has simply interpreted the spiritual meanings wrong - the death of the carnal nature through our crucifixion is everywhere:

"Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with." (Mat 20:23)

"Except a grain of wheat falls to the ground and die, it abides alone - but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Mat 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23)

And so we then read scriptures like this and think they're talking about His crucifixion only:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor 1:18)

Or ones like this, which we think is speaking of a resurrection after we physically die.

"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die." (1 Cor 15:36)

For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (2 Cor 4:11)

And so on...the point is, God always has a plan above what is simply comprehended by the natural mind.
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