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Old 05-21-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It does negate God. If everyone is saved, then what do you still need Christ for?
you needed him to die on the cross... do you also need him to continually die, or was the one time good enough?




Quote:
According to UR, you don't need to live a good and moral life or give lit service, because everyone is saved, including Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy etc...
You don't need to TRY to live a good life... recognizing your salvation is not a requirement in having been saved... A concept that is really hard for people who believe not all people will be in heaven with them.

Quote:
It is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible says one must be born again into the spirit and accept the invitation to the"wedding". If not, you will perish.
LOL we've gone over this before... those invited to the wedding NEVER showed up... it was those who DID NOT have an invitation but were snatched off the street! The one that did accept the invitation was condemned for not wearing the right outfit... That is what the wedding parable says... right?

Also... The bible never gives the formula.. to perish = to burn in hell, or to be condemned=to burn in hell, or God's wrath = burning in hell... does it? yet you seem to use those all interchangeably with burning eternally in hell..
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,931 posts, read 8,506,993 times
Reputation: 11636
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Salvation is really not about "accepting Jesus", as most ETer's might have you believe. Salvation is having eternal life. Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus whom He sent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
The bible doesn't say we have to accept Jesus as Savior. It says He IS the Savior of the world. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just a few. He died to save us from sin and death, not a literal lake of fire.
I have alway been taught and I agree that believing in Jesus and trusting Jesus to make me right before God is what is meant by "accepting" Him.

Jn 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life

Jn 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Jn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
****************
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (to be in Christ takes "believe" a step further)
***************
Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Through Jesus- taking believe to a personal level-we are in Him and we have a relationship with God and salvation through Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

With Christ-taking "believe" a second step further
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,931 posts, read 8,506,993 times
Reputation: 11636
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Thats the way i'm doing it but my fundamentalist Christian co worker says its Not good enough, seems i have to repent and take Jesus as my savior and join and participate in church activities most Sundays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
So is

good enough to have a happy afterlife?

The good news is that Church doesn't save you.

The bad news is just being "good" ain't gonna cut it either.



Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Being good is fine, but we are saved thru Christ, not by our own righteousness.
**********************
The good news is Salvation is a gift.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

Last edited by Mr5150; 05-21-2010 at 04:03 PM..
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:09 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,404 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am learning a lot about Universalism on this board. Thanks! Good to gain knowledge.

Anyway my question is: if everyone will be eventually be saved then why accept Jesus as savior? It would seem that the Uni view negates the need for Christ.

If I just live a good and moral life and give lip service to God I'm good to go. That is what I am hearing. Is that more or less what is being said by the Uni folk?

This seems to be contrary to what I read in the Bible.
i take it you beleive that one needs to beleive in Jesus to enter the spirtual universe!!

what about all the people before jesus?

what about all the people born into different cultures?

what about all the people that wil never hear about jesus?

what about all the children that die before they can understand or hear anything about jesus?

what about all the people born with mental handicaped condition's?

well i suppose ypur awnser to that is that God only randomly picks a select few,and that my freind is so far away from truth that i dont know where to begin!!!!!
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,931 posts, read 8,506,993 times
Reputation: 11636
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
i take it you beleive that one needs to beleive in Jesus to enter the spirtual universe!!

what about all the people before jesus?

what about all the people born into different cultures?

what about all the people that wil never hear about jesus?

what about all the children that die before they can understand or hear anything about jesus?

what about all the people born with mental handicaped condition's?

well i suppose ypur awnser to that is that God only randomly picks a select few,and that my freind is so far away from truth that i dont know where to begin!!!!!
I don't think you need to know Jesus to enter the spiritual universe. When you die you enter it. The question is being right with God-are you doing things your way or God's way?

John 3:36; Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (NIV)

The only people who have to be concerned are those who reject Jesus. You can't reject something that you either never heard of or lack the ability to understand.
***************
You speak of Truth. What is your source of truth? Mine is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. I don't claim to know everthing, but I do know a few things about being in relationship with God.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,548 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9419
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL we've gone over this before... those invited to the wedding NEVER showed up... it was those who DID NOT have an invitation but were snatched off the street! The one that did accept the invitation was condemned for not wearing the right outfit... That is what the wedding parable says... right?
Laugh all you want, but no, that is NOT what the parable says.

There are two ways to be outside (of the kingdom of heaven) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth:

1. Reject the invitation and never show up
2. To be thrown out of the wedding

- For many are invited, but few are chosen -

You will not be chosen unless you accept the invitations. As you can see, no one was forced to come to the wedding.


“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
—Matthew 22:1-14, NIV
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,548 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I have alway been taught and I agree that believing in Jesus and trusting Jesus to make me right before God is what is meant by "accepting" Him.
You are absolutely correct.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,922,051 times
Reputation: 9966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am learning a lot about Universalism on this board. Thanks! Good to gain knowledge.

Anyway my question is: if everyone will be eventually be saved then why accept Jesus as savior? It would seem that the Uni view negates the need for Christ.

If I just live a good and moral life and give lip service to God I'm good to go. That is what I am hearing. Is that more or less what is being said by the Uni folk?

This seems to be contrary to what I read in the Bible.
That really is an over-simplified way of putting it. I can see why you would interpret it that way, but there's more to the doctrine than meets the eye. The question is, what does it mean to you to be saved? Saved from what? An eternity in the grave with no hope of a resurrection? An eternity of suffering in Hell? What would you be content with? Jesus Christ's sacrifice ensures that literally all will be saved. It ensures that those who repent and believe that He is their Savior be raised in the First Resurrection to enter Heaven free from sin (since He already paid the price). It ensures that even the unrepentent wicked who refuse to acknowledge Him be allowed into Heaven as part of the Second Resurrection at the end of His Millennial Reign, after having suffered the punishment for their own sins.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:55 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,688,799 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:

There are two ways to be outside (of the kingdom of heaven) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth:

1. Reject the invitation and never show up
2. To be thrown out of the wedding

- For many are invited, but few are chosen -

You will not be chosen unless you accept the invitations. As you can see, no one was forced to come to the wedding.


“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
—Matthew 22:1-14, NIV

We can also see that under this paradgm that someone who was invited and accepted was thrown out.

Many are invited, but few are chosen and some are thrown out cause they suck.

Which really only proves that salvation under this system of intepretation is really the luck of the draw because there certainly is not any warning to the people invited that they had better wear the right clothes.


Christians who post this stuff need to understand that there is no criteria that they can produce to show that they will not be thrown out of the wedding and therefor be damned to the hell they believe in for all eternity.


With Christian Universalism, we are fully aware of the truth that we may be thrown out of the wedding, but God does not hold that against humanity for all eternity. We may suffer loss and endure purifying fire and no one expects it to be pleasant, but we also know the character of God.

If Christians believe in an eternal hell, then they need to be told the fact they may end up there. That is just how it is.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:55 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,236 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I have alway been taught and I agree that believing in Jesus and trusting Jesus to make me right before God is what is meant by "accepting" Him.

Jn 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life

Jn 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Jn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
****************
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (to be in Christ takes "believe" a step further)
***************
Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Through Jesus- taking believe to a personal level-we are in Him and we have a relationship with God and salvation through Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

With Christ-taking "believe" a second step further
I'm not sure what you mean by taking "belief" a second step further. I don't think the bible speaks of belief in those terms. Believing is similar to being alive, or I suppose, like being pregnant. You either are, or your really not. I suppose one could be in a spiritual coma though, and might no longer know they believe (similar to doubting Thomas):

Joh 20:27 then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put it to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'

I also think that the Holy Spirit selected specific words and terms (a biblical vocabulary, if you will) to define and set forth spiritual truths and doctrines for us to know. If we redefine those words and terms (such as "accept" or "make a decision" for the idea of "receiving", or for instance using the term "Hell" for grave or Gehenna, etc.) our bible translations and teachings will begin to veil the Spirits message and ultimately lead us into errors. This is one of the reasons universal reconciliation/redemption is often miss understood, overlooked and simply not believed, due to this practice.
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