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Old 06-09-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Probably because you want to interpet it that way...which you're entitled to.

I would tend to say they knew in general terms because of their relationship with God prior to the fall. I'm sure that they knew that God didn't tolerate the angels who rebelled (the war in heaven Revelation 12:7) which happened before they sinned.

"they [the rebellious angels] lost their place in heaven" Revelation 12:7-8


Being that this war took place prior to Gen 3 (the fall) and creation was not under the curse, one can conclude that:
  1. this location (hell) is a place where humanity was never intended to experience or see.
  2. there is no such thing as a "physical death" for a non-physical being.
  3. By default then "Death" for non-physical being who "lost their place in heaven" is hell eternally.
Here's my thought progression:
  • Adam & Eve were not "all-knowing" and certain knowledge was withheld from them (i.e. nakedness).
  • they knew that the arch-angel "Morning Star" (now Satan who was speaking to them) and others "lost their place in heaven"
  • But they didn't know where "hell" was, or how bad "death" was
  • And there was this tree in the middle of the Garden, by whose fruit would give them the answers, if only they would eat some of it.
They fell for the lie...they didn't become like God, but they got their answer.............. knowledge of good and evil.
I don't know why Colossians 1:20 would talk about reconciling things in HEAVEN and earth, then.

Through him (Christ) God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ's blood on the cross.

What needs to be reconciled to God in the heavens?

At least Mike555 admitted that Satan and his angels were supposed to be reconciled......

Remember, the angelic conflict involves us for a reason.
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:13 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Probably because you want to interpet it that way...which you're entitled to.

I would tend to say they knew in general terms because of their relationship with God prior to the fall. I'm sure that they knew that God didn't tolerate the angels who rebelled (the war in heaven Revelation 12:7) which happened before they sinned.

"they [the rebellious angels] lost their place in heaven" Revelation 12:7-8



Being that this war took place prior to Gen 3 (the fall) and creation was not under the curse, one can conclude that:
  1. this location (hell) is a place where humanity was never intended to experience or see.
  2. there is no such thing as a "physical death" for a non-physical being.
  3. By default then "Death" for non-physical being who "lost their place in heaven" is hell eternally.
Here's my thought progression:
  • Adam & Eve were not "all-knowing" and certain knowledge was withheld from them (i.e. nakedness).
  • they knew that the arch-angel "Morning Star" (now Satan who was speaking to them) and others "lost their place in heaven"
  • But they didn't know where "hell" was, or how bad "death" was
  • And there was this tree in the middle of the Garden, by whose fruit would give them the answers, if only they would eat some of it.
They fell for the lie...they didn't become like God, but they got their answer.............. knowledge of good and evil.

I'm not arguing consequenses , we all suffer consequenses, the wages of sin is death. Will Adam and Eve surely die? Yep, so will you.

I am stating that the old testament absolutely does not describe a warning of eternal doom for adam and eve.

You have not shown that interpretation and you never will.
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That passage is talking about the hardening of Pharaoh not his destruction or death...Pharaoh was not destroyed by God but manipulated (if you will) by God.

Romans 9:16-21



16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
(see how it is not dependent on man but solely God?)


17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
(The footnotes state this is referring to Exodus 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.)

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

(God hardened Pharaoh to show that even without man's permission, God can do what he wills)


19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
(again...who resists the will of God?)

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
(Isaiah 29:16; 45:9)

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

(Back to Pottery 101 )

.
Let me help you with the next verse, since it 'fell off' your quote:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

He destroyed the entire army, thousands of people, only so he could display his power.

It was me who brought up the potter verse. It demonstrates God's soveirgnity. Some pots are made for noble use (like Jacob) and some are just tools, and prepared for destruction (Pharaoh's army). Every soldier in Pharaoh's army were prepared for destruction.
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Let me help you with the next verse, since it 'fell off' your quote:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

He destroyed the entire army, thousands of people, only so he could display his power.

It was me who brought up the potter verse. It demonstrates God's soveirgnity. Some pots are made for noble use (like Jacob) and some are just tools, and prepared for destruction (Pharaoh's army). Every soldier in Pharaoh's army were prepared for destruction.
How funny that we have now come full circle! I see you have changed it from Pharaoh's destruction to the army which is entirely true... Thanks!

Pottery was considered so useful that even the broken pieces were used:
Isaiah 30:14 It will break in pieces like pottery, shattered so mercilessly that among its pieces not a fragment will be found for taking coals from a hearth or scooping water out of a cistern."

And what is the "IT" that is shattered so mercilessly? Sin. A specific sin in fact.

God destroyed thousands of people to show that even if Pharaoh changed his mind it wasn't going to stop God from freeing his people. The object was not how many were destroyed but what was accomplished by the act itself. Had the army been alive they would have slaughtered the people and God would not be the victor.

Anyway... now do you see why we went on a "pottery for dummies" type tangent?
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:15 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Let me help you with the next verse, since it 'fell off' your quote:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

He destroyed the entire army, thousands of people, only so he could display his power.

It was me who brought up the potter verse. It demonstrates God's soveirgnity. Some pots are made for noble use (like Jacob) and some are just tools, and prepared for destruction (Pharaoh's army). Every soldier in Pharaoh's army were prepared for destruction.
Finn, It says as well of the same lump one for destruction and one for glory.

What I believe is there is more to it than God saving christians only -- he has sown a seed in all humans, we all have a carnal body bound for destruction, if you believe on Jesus for salvation and the seed is germinated and produces fruit of the spirit you will not be ashamed, destroyed........ there is resurrection of the dead as well as death .......

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Bare grain -- a seed is sown in the corruptible and raised




1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
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Old 06-09-2010, 06:17 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,813,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I don't know why Colossians 1:20 would talk about reconciling things in HEAVEN and earth, then.

Through him (Christ) God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ's blood on the cross.

What needs to be reconciled to God in the heavens?.
Ephesians 2:15-17
"by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."

Christ reconciled law with its commandments and regulations thus making peace with God.

Colossians 1:20 speaks of an inanimate object ..."things". Ephesians 2:15-17 would give an answer of what "things" .......... the law with its commandments and regulations.
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Old 06-09-2010, 06:23 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
How funny that we have now come full circle! I see you have changed it from Pharaoh's destruction to the army which is entirely true... Thanks!

Pottery was considered so useful that even the broken pieces were used:
Isaiah 30:14 It will break in pieces like pottery, shattered so mercilessly that among its pieces not a fragment will be found for taking coals from a hearth or scooping water out of a cistern."

And what is the "IT" that is shattered so mercilessly? Sin. A specific sin in fact.

God destroyed thousands of people to show that even if Pharaoh changed his mind it wasn't going to stop God from freeing his people. The object was not how many were destroyed but what was accomplished by the act itself. Had the army been alive they would have slaughtered the people and God would not be the victor.

Anyway... now do you see why we went on a "pottery for dummies" type tangent?
Ahhhh your interpretation falls short.

This verse is not speaking of sin, but sinners who love their sin. Not one would escape the coming wrath of judgement which came first to the Northern Kingdom of Samaria via the Assyrians and the Southern Kingdom via the Babylonians. This in fact supports the whole of scripture in stating the concept of a "remnant" being saved.

This verse in effect mocks those who think they can escape God's judgement and then declares even in attempting to escape they will still face it.

Clearly God is still calling you and the choice yet remains.

In fact on a side note this verse and the actions of those Jews it describes namely the Southern Kingdom of Judah are believed by many to be the source of concepts that originated in Alexandria to include Universalism. Those who returned to the land they were captives and saved from were clearly not faithful in God!
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Old 06-09-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Ephesians 2:15-17
"by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."

Christ reconciled law with its commandments and regulations thus making peace with God.

Colossians 1:20 speaks of an inanimate object ..."things". Ephesians 2:15-17 would give an answer of what "things" .......... the law with its commandments and regulations.
You are reaching......

Taking verses out of context and doing some mental gymnastics, I'd say.

Why don't we look at it in context: Colossians 1:16: For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:20: God was also pleased to bring everything on earth and in heaven back to himself through Christ. He did this by making peace through Christ's blood sacrificed on the cross.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Ahhhh your interpretation falls short.

This verse is not speaking of sin, but sinners who love their sin. Not one would escape the coming wrath of judgement which came first to the Northern Kingdom of Samaria via the Assyrians and the Southern Kingdom via the Babylonians. This in fact supports the whole of scripture in stating the concept of a "remnant" being saved.

This verse in effect mocks those who think they can escape God's judgement and then declares even in attempting to escape they will still face it.

Clearly God is still calling you and the choice yet remains.

In fact on a side note this verse and the actions of those Jews it describes namely the Southern Kingdom of Judah are believed by many to be the source of concepts that originated in Alexandria to include Universalism. Those who returned to the land they were captives and saved from were clearly not faithful in God!
UM.. no.. here is the passage in context:
12 Therefore, this is what the Holy One of Israel says:
“Because you have rejected this message,
relied on oppression
and depended on deceit,
13 this sin will become for you
like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
that collapses suddenly, in an instant.
14 It will break in pieces like pottery,
shattered so mercilessly
that among its pieces not a fragment will be found
for taking coals from a hearth
or scooping water out of a cistern.”

THIS SIN is the subject and IT is THIS SIN. Not the sinner but the sin itself.

Their faithlessness is apparent but yet it is the sin that will become for them broken and mercilessly shattered so that not even a fragment of the sin will be found.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,567,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
THIS SIN is the subject and IT is THIS SIN. Not the sinner but the sin itself.
But wasn't that whole concept just a big misunderstanding by an eastern heathen named Mahatma Gandhi? Or was Isaiah before him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Their faithlessness is apparent but yet it is the sin that will become for them broken and mercilessly shattered so that not even a fragment of the sin will be found.
It can be very humbling when that happens.
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