U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-21-2010, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,906 posts, read 8,479,538 times
Reputation: 11600

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Christians who post this stuff need to understand that there is no criteria that they can produce to show that they will not be thrown out of the wedding and therefor be damned to the hell they believe in for all eternity.


With Christian Universalism, we are fully aware of the truth that we may be thrown out of the wedding, but God does not hold that against humanity for all eternity. We may suffer loss and endure purifying fire and no one expects it to be pleasant, but we also know the character of God.

If Christians believe in an eternal hell, then they need to be told the fact they may end up there. That is just how it is.
I can see that you do not understand that when we chose to make Jesus our Lord and Savior we have the
guarantee of being in heaven.


Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-21-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
Reputation: 58197
I'm new to the universal belief but it's not as simple as you put it. There IS a definite need for Christ, or else all could not or would not be able to be reconciled. Because of what Jesus did, we now have the opportunity to be reconciled to God. There are those in this life who will know Christ and are His elect, and there are those who do not know Him and will die without knowing Him. Those who know Him in this life are "saved", those who do not know Him are not "saved".

It seems that everyone (ETer's) are confusing salvation with reconciliation. Those who died unsaved will suffer the wrath of God. Those who are saved will not experience the wrath of God. But the other question is......what is the "wrath of God"? What does that involve? It means being "purified" in God's "spiritual fire". Nowhere does it say this will be an eternal burning of souls.....it says quite the opposite actually. But you have to first understand that "hell" does not mean what the ETer's think it means......the word "hell" should not be used to describe anything but the grave because that's all it means. And we're all going there!

I think enough scripture has been quoted here and in other threads to prove universalism is true and not eternal torment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,906 posts, read 8,479,538 times
Reputation: 11600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
. But the other question is......what is the "wrath of God"? What does that involve? It means being "purified" in God's "spiritual fire".

I think enough scripture has been quoted here and in other threads to prove universalism is true and not eternal torment.
Speaking of which...

Can you cite scripture that supports the idea that the wrath of God means being "purified" in God's "spiritual fire"?

So far I have seen nothing to support that concept beyond people saying it is so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Laugh all you want, but no, that is NOT what the parable says.

There are two ways to be outside (of the kingdom of heaven) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth:

1. Reject the invitation and never show up
2. To be thrown out of the wedding

- For many are invited, but few are chosen -

You will not be chosen unless you accept the invitations. As you can see, no one was forced to come to the wedding.


“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
—Matthew 22:1-14, NIV
Notice the bold and especially the red portion... It was not their standing in society nor whether they were bad or good that got them into the feast... instead...the king's servants GATHERED them...

1 man is singled out because he is not dressed right... and only that one man is thrown into the darkness.. What happened to the people that would not come? Well they killed his servant (think Christ here) and so they were also killed (think Sanhedrin in Jerusalem 70 AD). What do you think it means that the 1 man is singled out yet the last sentence is FEW are chosen. Does that mean the few chosen (since they gathered as many as they could find from the streets) is that 1 man?

I disagree with your interpretation of this...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:30 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,417 posts, read 29,537,833 times
Reputation: 29922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am learning a lot about Universalism on this board. Thanks! Good to gain knowledge.

Anyway my question is: if everyone will be eventually be saved then why accept Jesus as savior? It would seem that the Uni view negates the need for Christ.

If I just live a good and moral life and give lip service to God I'm good to go. That is what I am hearing. Is that more or less what is being said by the Uni folk?

This seems to be contrary to what I read in the Bible.
There is a good reason it seems contrary to what you read in the Bible, because it is!!!! It's a man made religion that is unbiblical. It's a lie straight from satan. The Bible does not teach all will be saved, Universalism is a dangerous belief, don't be fooled by it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:34 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
Reputation: 58197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Speaking of which...

Can you cite scripture that supports the idea that the wrath of God means being "purified" in God's "spiritual fire"?

So far I have seen nothing to support that concept beyond people saying it is so.
These scriptures describe God as "consuming fire" HIMSELF, HE is the spiritual fire that we have no concept of in this life.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Hebrews 12:29

For our God is a consuming fire.

The below scripture shows how our faith is tried with fire, which we know not to be literal fire but spiritual fire because we're not all running around with our bodies on fire. Fire is a metaphor for something spiritual that man had no idea how to describe. In the Bible, the word fire is used to describe something spiritual to do with God, that which they did not understand but appeared as "fire". It's how they understood it to look, not what it actually was.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Now in the below scriptures we see that God is the "refiner" and we are as gold or silver that needs "refining". When gold is tried by fire, it is then purified. That's how is it with God's consuming fire. He will try us with His spiritual fire and we will be refined and purified.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Malachi 3:3

And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
We can also see that under this paradgm that someone who was invited and accepted was thrown out.

Many are invited, but few are chosen and some are thrown out cause they suck.

Which really only proves that salvation under this system of intepretation is really the luck of the draw because there certainly is not any warning to the people invited that they had better wear the right clothes.
Yes, like the hypocritical pharisees for example. They pretend to be men of God, but they fail the test. Jesus said they would not be saved in this age, or the next age.

Therefore:

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-21-2010 at 05:49 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Notice the bold and especially the red portion... It was not their standing in society nor whether they were bad or good that got them into the feast... instead...the king's servants GATHERED them......
Yes, the good and bad are invited. The choise is simple: Take it or leave it.

Quote:
What happened to the people that would not come?
They remained outside where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote:
I disagree with your interpretation of this...
Of course you do, because you think everyone is automatically saved, and no one is left outside or thrown otside. Wanton disregrard of scripture like this is a clear sign of a false teaching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am learning a lot about Universalism on this board. Thanks! Good to gain knowledge.

Anyway my question is: if everyone will be eventually be saved then why accept Jesus as savior? It would seem that the Uni view negates the need for Christ.

If I just live a good and moral life and give lip service to God I'm good to go. That is what I am hearing. Is that more or less what is being said by the Uni folk?

This seems to be contrary to what I read in the Bible.
It is ONLY thru Christ that we can be saved. If I a universalists teaches otherwise (and I don't know any on this board that do) then they are WRONG! But having said that. We know that God does NOT Fail and will save everyone through His Son and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 05:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am learning a lot about Universalism on this board. Thanks! Good to gain knowledge.

Anyway my question is: if everyone will be eventually be saved then why accept Jesus as savior? It would seem that the Uni view negates the need for Christ.

If I just live a good and moral life and give lip service to God I'm good to go. That is what I am hearing. Is that more or less what is being said by the Uni folk?

This seems to be contrary to what I read in the Bible.
It is only in accepting Christ for who he is, the lord and savior of the world, that one can be saved. And eventually everyone will confess Christ as lord and be saved, either in this life, or after the resurrection and final judgment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top