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Old 05-21-2010, 06:34 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,746,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Not the best scripture choice to support your POV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes it fits perfectly... How else do you get from the OLD man to the NEW unless you are destroyed (as Saul was destroyed to Paul).

1 Peter 1:7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Zech. 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

The fire refines them so that they call on him. The old is destroyed and the new is born.

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
There's your answer Mr5150......thanks Kat!! Since when does "destroy" mean eternal torment? And Mr5150 you conveniently ignored the rest of my post.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yes they do support what I said.....you're the one choosing not to see. I know who Peter was speaking about but that in no way negates what the scripture is saying. Yes, the faithful are tried by FIRE in this life, and the unfaithful will be tried by FIRE in the next life. It's all spiritual fire. You cannot prove that the "fire" spoken of in the Bible is anything other than spiritual. My point was to show that it's spiritual, not literal.
I read the whole chapters in order to know the context, but it looks like you are using UR talking points, or you would not have used the verses us used. Where in the Bible does it say that unbelievres are tried by fire after death and then released to live eternal life. None of the verses you quoted says such thing.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:41 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
There's your answer Mr5150......thanks Kat!! Since when does "destroy" mean eternal torment? And Mr5150 you conveniently ignored the rest of my post.
Ilene

That was one of the "ah ha" moments for me, giving up the doctrine that death and destroyed means being eternally tormented in fire ...... they are totally different things.

And that aion/aionian are not ever and eternal.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,746,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Ilene

That was one of the "ah ha" moments for me, giving up the doctrine that death and destroyed means being eternally tormented in fire ...... they are totally different things.

And that aion/aionian are not ever and eternal.
Yeah!! It came to me not too long ago!! A-HA!! As a former ETer, it was an assumption, as is everything else to do with ET.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:50 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,746,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I read the whole chapters in order to know the context, but it looks like you are using UR talking points, or you would not have used the verses us used. Where in the Bible does it say that unbelievres are tried by fire after death and then released to live eternal life. None of the verses you quoted says such thing.
I know you love to argue Finn but I'm not here to argue with you....I was trying to answer the OP's question. Scriptures are not "talking points".....the scriptures speak for themselves and I don't have to do anything except quote them. You've been shown time and time again through scripture and the greek how hell is not eternal and how unbelievers will be tried by fire and how that is also not eternal. If God is not going to punish eternally, then common sense tells us, as well as scripture, that ALL will be reconciled.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:55 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yeah!! It came to me not too long ago!! A-HA!! As a former ETer, it was an assumption, as is everything else to do with ET.
ET is founded on connecting the dots -- however the dots are not connected properly as you get an illogical outcome, death = eternal torment

Adam was told if he disobeyed he would die, In Adam --- all die

Jesus came to give life, In Christ ---- all alive


But there is a process to get to that stage............ everyone in their own order
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:08 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,746,380 times
Reputation: 58197
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
ET is founded on connecting the dots -- however the dots are not connected properly as you get an illogical outcome, death = eternal torment

Adam was told if he disobeyed he would die, In Adam --- all die

Jesus came to give life, In Christ ---- all alive


But there is a process to get to that stage............ everyone in their own order
Amen to that!!
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,905 posts, read 8,476,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes Good thought. My apologies to the OP.
Not to worry. And thank you to all.

I am convinced, thanks to what I have read here, that Universalism is not biblical. If you want to know why I think it so, start on page 2 of this thread and read my posts.

The Bible is fairly clear that unless you put your life in the hands of Jesus you will not see life. The alternative is death. God desires that all be saved, but it is a choice. Sadly many will say no thanks.

Matthew 10:28 says: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

A final thought: If Universalism is true, I feel sorrow for all of those atheists who hate God. They will be forced to spend eternity with God. Not a pretty thought-for them.

Last edited by Mr5150; 05-21-2010 at 07:18 PM..
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes it fits perfectly... How else do you get from the OLD man to the NEW unless you are destroyed (as Saul was destroyed to Paul).

1 Peter 1:7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Zech. 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

The fire refines them so that they call on him. The old is destroyed and the new is born.

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
I already answered Tim, and it talks only about the faithful, and so does Zekhariah. Believers are tested by God. It says a third of the people (God's people) will be tried in fire, not everyone.

And Corinthians also talks about trial by fire, and it is in reference to the works of the believers which are tried in fire, not unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
The Bible is fairly clear that unless you put your life in the hands of Jesus you will not see life. The alternative is death. God desires that all be saved, but it is a choice. Sadly many will say no thanks.
You are welcome!

I agree that unless you put your life in the hands of Jesus you will not see life and the alternative is death. I also agree that God desires that all be saved.

The rest we can agree to disagree on. After all, I don't have anything to threaten you with if you don't believe me.


Quote:
Matthew 10:28 says: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Hell here is actually Gehenna which is the proper name of an actual place near Jerusalem... should never have been translated like that at all. Valley of Hinnom is more accurate than hell. IMO
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