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Old 05-21-2010, 08:51 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,048,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I can see that you do not understand that when we chose to make Jesus our Lord and Savior we have the
guarantee of being in heaven.


Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
None of the verses you quoted say we are to make Jesus our Lord and Savior. He is the Lord and Savior - period. It is not something we make Him do.

Notice the underlined words. These all show that salvation is a complete work of God. He pours out the Holy Spirit on us, and HE makes us stand firm. These are works of God, not us.

The middle verse is very telling. It says you trusted in Him AFTER you heard the word of truth. What is the word of truth? It tells us it's "the gospel of your salvation." So, how could someone hear the gospel of their own salvation BEFORE they trusted God? It's because the good news is that Jesus died to give salvation to all mankind. He's the Savior of the world and not the savior of a few people who make a wise decision.
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:15 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,048,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
A final thought: If Universalism is true, I feel sorrow for all of those atheists who hate God. They will be forced to spend eternity with God. Not a pretty thought-for them.
I have no idea why you would feel sorry for anyone who gets to be with God. Besides, atheists don't believe God exists, so how can they hate Him? So, you wouldn't feel sorry for them is they burn in fire forever with no chance for escape?

Below are other verses you should consider. Isn't it interesting that churches never bother to teach that Jesus will baptize with fire? It's because most people don't understand it, because they fail to realize that these scriptures referring to fire are symbolic and not literal.

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:22 PM
Status: "Status edited!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
4,650 posts, read 3,389,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
None of the verses you quoted say we are to make Jesus our Lord and Savior. He is the Lord and Savior - period. It is not something we make Him do.

.
I see that you think we don't need to desire Jesus as our personal Lord and savior. That works for me. UR is not biblical. Everyone gets eternal life? that is not what the Bible says. Or at the very least we get eternal life, but is a question of where you spend it

Matt 7:13-14

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

End of discussion.

Believe what you want, but it won't change what God has said.

Last edited by Mr5150; 05-21-2010 at 09:36 PM..
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,966 posts, read 3,027,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
The work of Calvary makes it all possible, yea definite.

The plan of God as I interpret it, is that a small group is filled with Him - the Bride will have all the authority, compassion, and life of her Husband, because they are of the same nature. But there's no short cut for her either, because she will have to be crucified as well.

This is where we are (or should be) now. Dying to self, and gaining Him.
Amen, Little Elmer! Not that I have attained to that place that I reach ever and upward toward, but I struggle to press into the high calling in Him.

Heartsong
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:34 PM
Status: "Status edited!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
4,650 posts, read 3,389,624 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I have no idea why you would feel sorry for anyone who gets to be with God. Besides, atheists don't believe God exists, so how can they hate Him? So, you wouldn't feel sorry for them is they burn in fire forever with no chance for escape?

Below are other verses you should consider. Isn't it interesting that churches never bother to teach that Jesus will baptize with fire? It's because most people don't understand it, because they fail to realize that these scriptures referring to fire are symbolic and not literal.

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Point 1.
Have you ever polled atheists on God? I have and 90% of them would rather burn in hell than hang out with God.

Point 2. I don't understand how you think those scriptures support the UR POV
Matthew 3:11-12-the whole section: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (sounds like total destruction to me)


Mark 9:47-50 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.” (a clear case of cherry picking to support a theology instead of taking scripture at face value)
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,966 posts, read 3,027,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It does negate God. If everyone is saved, then what do you still need Christ for?




According to UR, you don't need to live a good and moral life or give lit service, because everyone is saved, including Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy etc...



It is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible says one must be born again into the spirit and believe in Christ. There is a great parable about the "wedding" to which many were invited but only a few accepted the invitation. The ones who did not come were cast into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The UR people completely disregard these verses, and they don't see that it is the very message the Bible teaches. Instead they cling to a handful verses which they think supports their view. The problem with cherry picking verses out of context, is that by doing that you could make the Bible say anything and support any point of view. However the message of salvation is repeated over and over in the Bible so there is no way anyone can twist it into something else unless they completely close their eyes to almost the entire Bible.
In the parable of the wedding, the one cast into outer darkness was the one who showed up without the proper garment on. I think the wedding garment without spot is that of those whose hearts have been made pure by knowing God and walking in love. It just may be that the improper garment also has to do with a church who SAYS the name of Jesus in vain, not having love for those who are struggling at the gate to enter the Kingdom, but doing all they can to discourage those who are barely entering. Jesus said that prostitutes and thieves would enter the Kingdom BEFORE the Pharisees. Nevertheless, even the Pharisees will enter in eventually. The devil is such a sly one!

Heartsong
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:19 PM
Status: "God saves ALL" (set 9 days ago)
 
5,950 posts, read 2,970,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I see that you think we don't need to desire Jesus as our personal Lord and savior. That works for me. UR is not biblical. Everyone gets eternal life? that is not what the Bible says. Or at the very least we get eternal life, but is a question of where you spend it

Matt 7:13-14

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

End of discussion.

Believe what you want, but it won't change what God has said.
Really? Where does God eliminate sin in your theology? The teaching of mainstream hell is that God will take REBELLING (sinning) sinners and just MOVE them to a new location and GUESS WHAT? - it teaches that SIN shall have dominion for the rest of eternity. YES!!!!!!! that is EXACTLY what it teaches. It teaches that Jesus will let SIN have dominion over sinners (by keeping them in rebellion) for the REST of eternity. Is that what you really believe??????????????????????

Come on now! Is that RATIONAL? Is that what the Word of God says?

The Lord Jesus was sent here to DESTROY the works of the devil which is SIN. So HOW can Sin possibly have DOMINION forevermore? Once Christ is done SIN shall NOT exist - ANYWHERE. Yes NOT even in SINNERS!!!! GET IT???????

Come on now - why is this so hard to believe? Why must people think so irrationally about the Lord's Power and Purpose?

God shall NOT fail. His work is NOT in vain.

The pain here is for me to see the ignorance of His nature and BEING. He is ALMIGHTY and desires none to perish but for all to obtain ETERNAL LIFE. And His desires shall be fulfilled!!!

Praise God!!!
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:49 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,386,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
The middle verse is very telling. It says you trusted in Him AFTER you heard the word of truth. What is the word of truth? It tells us it's "the gospel of your salvation." So, how could someone hear the gospel of their own salvation BEFORE they trusted God? It's because the good news is that Jesus died to give salvation to all mankind. He's the Savior of the world and not the savior of a few people who make a wise decision.
That there ^^^^^ is a very important concept to understanding universal redemption. It's called "THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION". Some (ETer's) suppose it to say the gospel of "your invitation" or the gospel of "your decision" or the gospel "of salvation" (leaving out the word YOUR) or the gospel of "your choice" or the gospel of "your acceptance". But this is not what it says at all. It says THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. A stated fact: YOUR SALVATION. Not a proposed salvation or a salvation of chance, of only potential or one having only a mere possibility. But rather unequivocally stated as: YOUR SALVATION.

And why is it stated as such? Because a few verses before, Paul tells us:

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;

Our salvation was proposed in God (Himself) and is revealed (made known) to us IN TIME, according to His good pleasure, not ours. And not only for us (those who believe now) but it is also made known (to the UR's at least, but perhaps not the ETer's ) that both the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth will be IN HIM (in Christ).
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 2,029,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
In the parable of the wedding, the one cast into outer darkness was the one who showed up without the proper garment on. I think the wedding garment without spot is that of those whose hearts have been made pure by knowing God and walking in love. It just may be that the improper garment also has to do with a church who SAYS the name of Jesus in vain, not having love for those who are struggling at the gate to enter the Kingdom, but doing all they can to discourage those who are barely entering. Jesus said that prostitutes and thieves would enter the Kingdom BEFORE the Pharisees. Nevertheless, even the Pharisees will enter in eventually. The devil is such a sly one!

Heartsong
Couldn't say it any better myself, Heartsong.

The darkness out there has enveloped the WHOLE EARTH! It's hard to HEAR the love. You've got to be tuned in to the right Spirit. It's definitely that still, small voice, and the world is busy trying to drown it out.

It came to this planet as weak and vulnerable to show that the "weak" and seemingly vulnerable is much more powerful than the hatred that killed it.
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:56 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,048,382 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Point 1.
Have you ever polled atheists on God? I have and 90% of them would rather burn in hell than hang out with God.

Point 2. I don't understand how you think those scriptures support the UR POV
Matthew 3:11-12-the whole section: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (sounds like total destruction to me)


Mark 9:47-50 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.” (a clear case of cherry picking to support a theology instead of taking scripture at face value)
I'm pretty sure that you think the salt is symbolic and the fire is not.

No. I haven't polled atheists, but you didn't answer my question. Why would you feel sorry for an atheist who would be spending time with God instead of one who would be on fire? You haven't thought that one through apparently.

Regarding the other post, the bible doesn't say we have to make Him our "personal" anything. We are to believe in Him to be able to know Him, which is to have eternal life.
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