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When both sides of the issue say these kinds of statements I have to disagree that it is a reality.
The reason I say this is because two people who disagree on an issue cannot rightly prove that either does not intend to learn the things of God. This is why such statement from both sides that I witness everyday are meaningless.
I disagree with Finn on many items, yet I still found something in another thread that I agree with, but I can't accuse him of not wanting to learn the things of God just because Finn is not convinced by anything I write.
OK. Instead of saying he didn't want to learn the things of God, I should have just said he didn't seem interested in the symbolism of the potter and the clay.
Brian,
That's like asking...Is it necessary to believe in heaven in order to go to hell? Heaven and hell exist whether or not you believe in them.the proof that both exists is that Jesus went to hell, and is now in heaven.
The real questions are two fold:
What is necessary to believe in order to get to heaven?
Does your time of grace extend beyond this life on earth?
If your answer to #2 is yes, then #1 has no earthly irrelevancy because you don't need to believe in these to enter heaven.
the One True God
That God is Triune
Jesus as your personal Savior (subjective justification)
The Bible being the only source of absolute, infallible truth to be saved
"By grace" being the reason you're saved
No one self invites themself into heaven. Entrance into heaven is done by permission\invitation by Jesus Matthew 25:34.
ok. so if you don't need to believe in hell in order to be saved, why mention it?
Your comment meant nothing except to show your unwillingless to learn the things of God. You know that the potter and the clay are symbolic of God working in the lives of individuals, but you refuse to even learn what that symbolism means. I added another comment right before you posted, which might be food for thought
Do you not realize that you are reaching when you try to link a Wikipedia article on ceramic pottery to the Bible? You are trying to parse together completey unrelated topics in order to create an argument. If you want to make an serious argument, then back it up with the Bible, not Wikipedia.
OK. Instead of saying he didn't want to learn the things of God, I should have just said he didn't seem interested in the symbolism of the potter and the clay.
I have to disagree with Phaze on this because it was simply YOUR OPINION that Finn was not open to what you were saying... you generalized that but still it is your opinion, which you are entitled to.
If we all take things like this at face value we would see that none of it is meant as an attack... (although I have seen some blatant attacks on here I don't see that as the case with your post).
I have to agree with you, BHFT, because it seems that the discussion cannot go any further and you made an excellent point. So thank you for the enlightenment about the potter and clay and KILN.. I had never really thought about that connection but you are right... the fire is what solidifies the process in both metallurgy and pottery. Both of which the bible uses to explain the power of God over humankind.
I have to disagree with Phaze on this because it was simply YOUR OPINION that Finn was not open to what you were saying... you generalized that but still it is your opinion, which you are entitled to.
If we all take things like this at face value we would see that none of it is meant as an attack... (although I have seen some blatant attacks on here I don't see that as the case with your post).
I have to agree with you, BHFT, because it seems that the discussion cannot go any further and you made an excellent point. So thank you for the enlightenment about the potter and clay and KILN.. I had never really thought about that connection but you are right... the fire is what solidifies the process in both metallurgy and pottery. Both of which the bible uses to explain the power of God over humankind.
Well, to illustrate my point, I could simply make the same meaningless accusation here and just call it my opinion.
Either way, these sort of accusations are meaningless and bears no fruit.
Do you not realize that you are reaching when you try to link a Wikipedia article on ceramic pottery to the Bible? You are trying to parse together completey unrelated topics in order to create an argument. If you want to make an serious argument, then back it up with the Bible, not Wikipedia.
The wikipedia stuff was simply to explain the process of pottery... not as a biblical principal...
But since you asked... the process of pottery is indeed applicable because many analogies are made using pottery and metallurgy and farming:
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Mal. 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
The concept of the kiln in pot making and the refining fire of metal working and the furnace burning the chaff of farming and even the soap of the launderer are all representative of the cleansing that happens.
The point is that the result of all these things is a completed useful vessel, strong/pure metal, fruit-bearing trees, usable crops, clean linens.... but what is the result of the burning in hell?
The wikipedia stuff was simply to explain the process of pottery... not as a biblical principal...
But since you asked... the process of pottery is indeed applicable because many analogies are made using pottery and metallurgy and farming:
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Mal. 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
The concept of the kiln in pot making and the refining fire of metal working and the furnace burning the chaff of farming and even the soap of the launderer are all representative of the cleansing that happens.
The point is that the result of all these things is a completed useful vessel, strong/pure metal, fruit-bearing trees, usable crops, clean linens.... but what is the result of the burning in hell?
You changed the topic, and your friends rushed in like roaches from all directions to to defend you and the new topic. No, I won't play.
Let me know when you are ready to get back to the topic. The topic was not refining fire, but God's sovereignty and how he creates people for different purposes, some even for destruction so he can show his power.
Well, to illustrate my point, I could simply make the same meaningless accusation here and just call it my opinion.
Either way, these sort of accusations are meaningless and bears no fruit.
You could... and I would be fine with that.
However, we can see by Finn's next post that he was simply commenting on the lack of credibility with a wikipedia explanation rather than the point of the post...
I hear your sweet soul and I appreciate it but I am not one who thinks people should be so easily offended by simple things like that. However, you are 100% correct that the way it was presented (as if BHFT had the line on the things of God) was probably said in haste, but I translated that to mean that Finn wasn't interested in the analogy of Potter and Clay... and you can see by his posts that he is not interested in it but is attacking wikipedia.
Anyway... we should probably move on. I found the explanation given by wikipedia and BHFT to be very helpful in understanding that FIRE is not just a destroyer but a refiner, and perfecter.
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