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Old 05-25-2010, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,354 posts, read 14,227,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You forgot to mention why "God will have all mankind to be saved" in 1 Timothy 2:4. It is found in the next two verses "for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (2:6).

One who is ransomed MUST be freed into God's salvation.

It is really about God's mercy. The children of the parents strewn along in the wilderness were allowed to go into the land. Was God particularly happy with them? Did they have faith?
OK - Why not hit all of the verses?

1 Tim 2:1-7 -

1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

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Pray for the leaders.

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3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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It's good in the sight of God to pray for our leaders. God desires all men to be saved and know the truth. Men - not afterlife spirits. Will all men know the truth? No. Will all men be saved? No.

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5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

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Christ is the mediator between man (not afterlife spirits) and God - just like Moses was the mediator between God and Israel. Ransom for all - right - I stated that Christ's death was effective for all - he paid for everyone's sins. But you don't get to the Rev. 22 experience by Christ's death. It requires faith.

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7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

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Paul was the apostle of Gentiles on earth.

I keep mentioning afterlife spirits because you incorrectly extrapolate verse 2:4 towards people who have died without believing - stating that eventually all will believe. This passage refers to men on earth.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:00 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
We do not have to post on all threads that get started - other threads get started and they get ignored for whatever reason,
People get angry about all the UR threads, then they start them themselves, then they get angry that the URs aren't responding! LOL...

Peace out all ET and UR city-data-dwellers...
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:10 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Legoman - you just spurred me to another thought. You state that my view indicates that God has failed because He desired a result and it did not come to pass.

There is a desire, and there is a promise. These are two different things. The promise absolutely will be fulfilled.

Regarding the OT promised land, God desired certain people to dwell in the promised land. 99+% did not make it. Did that invalidate God's promise? No. What was the promise? God promised Abraham that his people would dwell in the land. Did that happen? Yes. Now God had to get a new set of people to have the faith to take over the land - but the promise was fulfilled.

For us, God desires all to be saved. Will all be saved? There are verses that indicate that this is not the case. However, is there a promise? Yes.

1 John 2:25 - This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

And regarding eternal life...

1 John 5:11-13 - And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who hear, believe, and possess the Son have (present tense) the promise of eternal life.

Translation issue: "eternal life" is not talking about immortality. Its talking about knowing God in this life now.


Quote:
That's the promise, and that is what we need to go by - not the desire. There is never the promise that all will be saved.
Oh but there is a promise. God promised Abraham that ALL PEOPLE would be blessed through Abraham's seed (Abraham's seed is Christ, and people who believe in Christ). That is the gospel - it was announced in advance. Read Acts 3:21-26, Galations 3, Gen 26:4, Gen 28:14, etc. Do you understand what this is saying? The blessing that Abraham and His seed received is that they would in turn bless all people on earth. That is God's promise. All will be blessed. And those chosen now (Abraham's seed) will bless the others.

Now its not much of a blessing to burn forever. Acts 3:26 tells us that God blesses people by turning them from their wicked ways... that is the real blessing.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,354 posts, read 14,227,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Don't forget, all the children of the ones strewn along in the wilderness went into the promised land with Joshua and Caleb.
Right - they had faith in God that they would get the land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Your premise is absurd that if God was giving the Israelites the land and they didn't get it that therefore there is no Universal salvation.
God desired to give the land to those who passed through the Red Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But the fact is is that He did give it to the Israelites. Moses and Aaron didn't make it in yet we know they will be in the future kingdom.
They did not make it in to the promised land - even though God desired that they make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Also, universal salvation is not based upon the faith of man but the faith of Christ and what He did for all mankind. Big difference.
Big difference - big error. Salvation is not based solely on Christ's death. The Bible is clear on this. It takes our faith. Even Legoman understands this, even though he erroneously extends faith beyond life on earth.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You don't believe God fails, other than when he fails to achieve his desire to have all men saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Eisegetically applied imposition into 1 Tim 2.

Quote:
universal reconciliation doesn't teach one can enter the kingdom without first being saved. It does go hand in hand with the teaching of confession as a necessary part of salvation, and that one must crucify the flesh and be reborn in the spirit, and that the corruptible will put on incorruption.
Yet it cloaks itself in heresy under the impression that after a man dies, he can still confess his faith in Christ. This is nowhere in the scripture.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Translation issue: "eternal life" is not talking about immortality. Its talking about knowing God in this life now.
You are wrong. The "promise of eternal life" is eternal, and that is knowing God, forever.

Quote:
Oh but there is a promise. God promised Abraham that ALL PEOPLE would be blessed through Abraham's seed (Abraham's seed is Christ, and people who believe in Christ). That is the gospel - it was announced in advance. Read Acts 3:21-26, Galations 3, Gen 26:4, Gen 28:14, etc. Do you understand what this is saying? The blessing that Abraham and His seed received is that they would in turn bless all people on earth. That is God's promise. All will be blessed. And those chosen now (Abraham's seed) will bless the others.
So Lego, you told us to read Acts 3:21-26, yet verse 23 set the standard for the blessing. One down.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Two down.

Gen 26:4 is evident, as Abraham had faith, and so does his seed have to have as stated in the previous two verses. The same goes for Gen 28:14.
Three and four down. Do you have any more?

.....nations of the earth....not disembodied souls in the spirit world.

Quote:
Now its not much of a blessing to burn forever. Acts 3:26 tells us that God blesses people by turning them from their wicked ways... that is the real blessing.
You have to turn from your wicked ways to be God's people. Once the corruptible is shed, the sin nature is gone and your nothing but a disembodied sprit without an incorruptible body, because you were without faith in Christ, and you died, because there is no victory over death physically or spiritually, for the one who rebels.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,354 posts, read 14,227,402 times
Reputation: 10155
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Translation issue: "eternal life" is not talking about immortality. Its talking about knowing God in this life now.
2 Cor. 5:1-2 - For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Oh but there is a promise. God promised Abraham that ALL PEOPLE would be blessed through Abraham's seed (Abraham's seed is Christ, and people who believe in Christ). That is the gospel - it was announced in advance. Read Acts 3:21-26, Galations 3, Gen 26:4, Gen 28:14, etc. Do you understand what this is saying? The blessing that Abraham and His seed received is that they would in turn bless all people on earth. That is God's promise. All will be blessed. And those chosen now (Abraham's seed) will bless the others.

Now its not much of a blessing to burn forever. Acts 3:26 tells us that God blesses people by turning them from their wicked ways... that is the real blessing.
Gal. 3:6-9 - Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

There is your distinction between all the nations and those who have faith. All the nations does not imply every single person - but believers from all nations.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:18 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are wrong. The "promise of eternal life" is eternal, and that is knowing God, forever.
No, you are wrong. "aionios" has been debated to death elsewhere. So suffice it to say I see the meaning differently.

Quote:
So Lego, you told us to read Acts 3:21-26, yet verse 23 set the standard for the blessing. One down.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Two down.

Gen 26:4 is evident, as Abraham had faith, and so does his seed have to have as stated in the previous two verses. The same goes for Gen 28:14.
Three and four down. Do you have any more?

.....nations of the earth....not disembodied souls in the spirit world.
Not so fast sciotamicks. You again miss the message of the gospel and the meaning of the verses.

You are reading the verses to mean that only the children of Abraham are blessed. It is true that they are the ones who have faith. But it is not true that they are the only ones blessed. Through them - Abraham's seed - all people, all nations, and all families will be blessed.

Try to understand this: those who have faith will bless the world.

Quote:
You have to turn from your wicked ways to be God's people. Once the corruptible is shed, the sin nature is gone and your nothing but a disembodied sprit without an incorruptible body, because you were without faith in Christ, and you died, because there is no victory over death physically or spiritually, for the one who rebels.
You are going on about disembodied spirits, but seem to forget that all are resurrected.

Who is it that turns people from their wicked ways? GOD. That is the blessing that Acts 3:26 speaks of. That is how God will bless all people, all families, and all nations.

Do you think it is man who turns himself from his wicked ways? Can the leopard change his spots or the Ethiopian his skin? Neither can anyone do good who is accustomed to doing evil (Jer 13:23).

So unless you think God wants people to burn in pain forever, God will indeed turn all people from their wickedness. Oh yeah - that's right - you think God wants people to burn forever.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:37 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Gal. 3:6-9 - Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

There is your distinction between all the nations and those who have faith. All the nations does not imply every single person - but believers from all nations.
Those who have faith (Abraham's offspring) will bless all people:

Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Gen 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.

Acts 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


That is the promise. All people (called all nations, all families, all peoples) will be blessed through Abraham's seed (those who have faith). Is your family blessed if you find out your great grandmother is burning in pain forever?
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, God gave David three choises all of which would result in thousands of deaths, and David chose the plague.
Good thing David wrote this down as it was happening so we know all the details are true and correct!
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