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Old 05-22-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,312,642 times
Reputation: 420

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
BHFT: The main reason I say that is because that's how I was. I had relatives who died over the years that I was supposedly believing that, and I just figured they were "probably" ok. That's how everyone is that I know.

You must have misunderstood my point. I meant that I used to think they were "probably" ok and didn't worry about it. That is the opposite of looking for UR. I didn't really think of it as something I should be giving a lot of thought. I was not fully comprehending the horror of ET. When God revealed the truth of UR to me, it was after I somewhat began to comprehend the horror while thinking about total strangers (like we're supposed to do - love your neighbor as yourself). It had nothing to do with relatives when I cried out to God and asked Him why He would burn people forever, and asked Him why He didn't have a way to save them. He answered in my heart loud and clear, that He was going to do no such thing.

You are professing with your lips that you believe people are going to be set on fire forever (maybe they are even burning right at this minute), but yet you aren't urgently warning every single person you meet that doesn't believe in Jesus. (Please don't give me the comeback that you're doing that right now by telling people who believe God is willing and able to save all through the shed blood of Jesus.)

If you really believe most of the people around you are going to hell, you should get off your computer and go warn everyone you come into contact with. Oh yeah...the bible doesn't tell us to do that, does it? I wonder why. Do you think God doesn't want us to warn people because He wants to burn as many as possible? Or maybe He doesn't want us to be embarrassed and look foolish warning all those people. Is that it? Or maybe He just forgot to put that part in the bible.

If hell is a literal lake of fire and you have to accept Jesus for Him to have the power to save you, the bible should have a verse that says, "Go into all the world and warn them to accept me or burn forever." Instead, it's says to go into all the world and preach the good news - also called the good news of YOUR salvation. According to your beliefs, how can you tell someone of the good news of their own salvation before they accept Him? Also, you say you're a Calvinist so there's really no need to preach anything if He has already decided who He'll keep and who He'll throw away.

ETers either don't, in the depths of their hearts, believe in a literal lake of fire, are "brainwashed," or their hearts are so hardened that they don't care if anyone other than themselves and a few loved ones burn. That's the simple truth. Otherwise, they wouldn't have time for anything else in life other than to warn people because NOTHING ELSE WOULD MATTER!

As for me, I think when I believed in ET I was a little brainwashed. I'm not sure if that's the right word, but it is pretty much the same thing as when I believed in Santa Claus. I believed it because that is what I was told and I just accepted it on "faith" that I was being told the truth. Once I found out, I could think back and wonder how I could have believed that when it didn't make any sense. Just a side note: Anyone ever notice how the fable of Santa teaches that if you're good and believe in Santa you'll get good gifts, but if you're bad or don't believe you'll get nothing or a lump of coal? Funny how loving parents give good gifts to their child even if they had a lot of bad behavior that year, and keep giving gifts after they stop believing in Santa. I think that's called unconditional love.
I understand your troubles and questions. We all ask those questions one time or another. However, as I have said, and many others time and time again, the scriptures DO NOT TEACH A DISEMBODIED SOUL CAN ACCEPT CHRIST and Be SAVED.

I can't really say if God answered you or not, but IMO, God did not tell you, "Hey, you deny my Son, don't worry, you won't be burn forever for it."

That, is again, a fairy tale made up from the heart and desires of man.
It is not from the scriptures.

I don't believe in corporate visions, unfulfilled prophecy, or any unfinished work. I believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit. I believe in modern miracles, healings, or gifts of the Spirit.

I believe God finished it all in Christ, and being in Him, means believing in Him, and it takes just that, to be a new creation, a new man, a regenerate with eternal life.
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Old 05-22-2010, 11:48 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,572,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That isn't the argument. The arguement is that one cannot accept Christ after they have died physically. That is a fairy tale.
Where is the scripture for that?
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,312,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Where is the scripture for that?
All over the scriptures.....it would behoove you to search it out.
Many of us has exhaustively posted them.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:34 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,572,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again...I have asked you this before...why are we debating?
I responded because the arguments made in the OP (and in some of the similar threads) imply that most unversalists believe that one can be saved apart from
- believing the gospel,
- being born again,
- having true faith in Christ,

That is simply not the case. The vast majority of "universalist" people and websites I've encountered teach that all mankind will be saved through Christ, not outside of Christ.

I also reponded because the "man" argument was a faulty.

In the other thread I repsonded because I disagreed with
1) Pink's argument that God is kind to his enemies but does not love His enemies.
2) Pink's argument that the "world" whom God is the Savior of is limted to a subset of humanity

Quote:
You seem to believe everything a Christian does, but DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THE DISEMBODIED SOUL CAN ACCEPT CHRIST and BE SAVED? That is the meat of the debate with UR.
Yes, post-mortem salvation (not salvation of disembodied souls though) is a central point of contention, not what is in the OP, which simply paints a false picture of what most universalists believe and then attacks that false picture. Any universalist who believes that one can be saved apart from faith Christ is refuted, but that leaves most univeralists unrefuted and not even addressed.

I believe that a resurrected person, not a "disembodied soul" can repent and turn to Christ, yes. And yes, I believe that God's mercy endures throughout the ages and does not terminate at death, resurrection, or especially at judgment.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,438,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
However, as I have said, and many others time and time again, the scriptures DO NOT TEACH A DISEMBODIED SOUL CAN ACCEPT CHRIST and Be SAVED.
The bible doesn't address disembodied souls at all yet you are saying that a disembodied soul CANNOT accept Christ and be saved... so where in scripture does it talk about disembodied souls in the first place?

Moot point unless you can show the bible addresses it at all... right? The bible doesn't address how they pruned their trees back then either so it is useless to demand scripture to prove one way or the other!
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:50 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,572,371 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
All over the scriptures.....it would behoove you to search it out. Many of us has exhaustively posted them.
I have and I disagree. It's only there when reading through the lense of what you already believe.

For example this verse is often given:
  • Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
And this verse is generally offered up as absolute proof without any explanation needed.

But since when does "judgment" in scripture imply "you can no longer repent" or "you can repent but God won't ever respond". It doesn't. There are oodles of judgments, sentences from God, wrath of God ignited, in scripture followed by repentence and eventual (but not always immediate) mercy from God. So "judgment" does not imply "it's too late" but when read through the lense of ET that's all that most Christians can see in that word.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:55 AM
 
3,664 posts, read 481,670 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post

I believe that a resurrected person, not a "disembodied soul" can repent and turn to Christ, yes. And yes, I believe that God's mercy endures throughout the ages and does not terminate at death, resurrection, or especially at judgment.
Thy Kingdom Come,
I am going to start a thread on death, resurrection and judgment re the timing of events and would like your thoughts.
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:05 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,663 posts, read 1,724,856 times
Reputation: 864
I think the influence of universalism can never be worse than that of eternal tormentism, the terrorists from 9/11 believed in ET alike - they hadn't done this if they were universalist, the Holocaust was basically a product of Catholic antisemitism, the Nazis wouldn't have killed the Jews if they haven't been Catholics but universalists. The doctrine of eternal tormentism showed its vicious face in the middle ages, Queen Mary I think and John Calvin are only tow examples for the devilish influence of that doctrine; I recommend to read this:

The following is a chapter from the book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:01 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,416 posts, read 20,162,784 times
Reputation: 2119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
I have and I disagree. It's only there when reading through the lense of what you already believe.

For example this verse is often given:
  • Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
And this verse is generally offered up as absolute proof without any explanation needed.

But since when does "judgment" in scripture imply "you can no longer repent" or "you can repent but God won't ever respond". It doesn't. There are oodles of judgments, sentences from God, wrath of God ignited, in scripture followed by repentence and eventual (but not always immediate) mercy from God. So "judgment" does not imply "it's too late" but when read through the lense of ET that's all that most Christians can see in that word.
Exactly and anyone with an open mind would have to agree with you on this.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:16 AM
 
Location: US
26,534 posts, read 14,125,714 times
Reputation: 1618
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
No ...... Who is committing genocide?
God is commiting Genocide...
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