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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:32 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,582,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Then you were not a genuine Christian if you believed in ET and there was hate and anger in your heart...
Yes, I was a Christian and you have no right or authority to say otherwise. I despised universalists and their teaching, as well as any other teaching I deemed false, which was anything that conflicted with fundamentalism. Are you saying you have no malice towards universalists? Yeah, I thought so. If you do not love like we are commanded to love, which you can't do believing in ET, then you're not following Christ's commandments. ET runs counter to love, God's love.

Edit to add: It just hit me what you really said in your statement......that I wasn't a Christian when I believed in ET, but now that I believe in universalism I am a Christian!!! Oh my, imagine that.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:41 AM
 
Location: RI
17,040 posts, read 7,577,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Tell me, do YOU love everyone unconditionally yet believe in ET?...
According to Romans 5 verse 8 God did and still does and initially this is what matters because we all reflect in some shape or form the God we believe in .

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely (there's your unconditional love) will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-23-2010 at 08:51 AM..
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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:47 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Have you ever known of one single solitary child that has actually received coal in their stocking, other than the movies??? Exactly. That's the point that BHFT was trying to make.....that it is likened to the belief that ALL are loved and that ALL will be reconciled.
The point is you cannot use a metyphor like Santa Claus to teach a UR belief when that is not the traditional belief...the tradition states that if one is naughty one gets coal from Santa Claus...You are changing the metyphor to suit your needs...One might as well ask, even though the scripture states ET, do i know of one person that received Eternal Hell...no, i do not, but i believe what scripture teaches regarding it...and i believe the tradition of Santa Claus as it was originally presented so long ago...and that is if a child is naughty they receive coal in there stocking, not toys...we all know that Santa Claus is not real even though it is based off of an actual person called Saint Nicholas, it is just the myth and it's regulations grew up around the actual events of a real person...we know it is parents that buy the toys for their kids, and not Santa Claus, regardless of whether they're good or bad, the fact of the myth states that if you are good you get toyse but if you are bad you get coal...the point here is the bible is not a myth built up around a real God...it is a real story built up around a real God...
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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:50 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,582,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The point is you cannot use a metyphor like Santa Claus to teach a UR belief when that is not the traditional belief...the tradition states that if one is naughty one gets coal from Santa Claus...You are changing the metyphor to suit your needs...One might as well ask, even though the scripture states ET, do i know of one person that received Eternal Hell...no, i do not, but i believe what scripture teaches regarding it...and i believe the tradition of Santa Claus as it was originally presented so long ago...and that is if a child is naughty they receive coal in there stocking, not toys...we all know that Santa Claus is not real even though it is based off of an actual person called Saint Nicholas, it is just the myth and it's regulations grew up around the actual events of a real person...we know it is parents that buy the toys for their kids, and not Santa Claus, regardless of whether they're good or bad, the fact of the myth states that if you are good you get toyse but if you are bad you get coal...the point here is the bible is not a myth built up around a real God...it is a real story built up around a real God...
You're making a mountain out of a molehill and it's not really anything that is worth discussing any further. You've completely missed the point, but that's not unusual.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,210 posts, read 2,885,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
John 3:4 is a confirmation to Nicodemus' statement of recognizing Christ, He is saying that unless one is born from above is is impossible to recognize the Reign of God and He was confirming that Nicodemus must be in fact born from above in that he recognized that Christ was sent from God, because Nicodemus said that no one could do the things that He did unless God was with them...

Galatians 4:6 is merely a admonishon against faultering...this is why i am against individual verse usage...one can build a whole doctrine around it...one only needs to study a book in its entirety to understand the Authors whole message...and it merely says "tis - one" in the Greek of John 3:3 not 'anthropos - man'...However, the whole gist of Christ and the Apostles is that unless one is born from above (regenerated by the Spirit) one cannot comprehed the Reign of God...The Jews understood that everything comes from God, even birth (life) so Nicodemus was misunderstanding what Christ was speaking of...that is why he said 'can i enter into my mothers womb and be born a second time?'...Nicodemus knew that his physical birth was from God and couldn't understand that Christ was talking of a birth (regeneration) of the Spirit in order to comprehend the Reign of God...That is why Christ told him 'what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit'...
Agreed. My whole point is disregarding context to support the theory of UR, and that you don't have to be pre-mortem to accept Christ.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,210 posts, read 2,885,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
so where in scripture does it talk about disembodied souls in the first place?
Revelation 20:4 for starters? Did you miss that one?...and I saw souls psychē beheaded for the.....
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Unread 05-23-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,210 posts, read 2,885,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Although i agree with you on a lot of topics, you really should show scriptural backup to your statements...
To gain Christ’s sinless nature, because that is the only thing to protect the believer from God’s holiness, is to no longer have free will to choose sin either. A person cannot accept Christ after death, and that means when the Christian is brought before God, the sinful nature can no longer exist, because the whole point is to survive God’s nature after death, and the acceptance of Christ is the only thing that can ensure this, prior to death. What allows you to come to God in the first place, is the blood of Christ on your body. You must cry out to Him in Christ, and He hears, while you are still in sin.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible (Flesh) must put on incorruption (Blood of Christ), and this mortal (Flesh) [must] put on immortality (White Robe/Blood of Christ).

Sin is in our mebers, our blood, bones and flesh are a the physical manifestation fo our sinful nature - James 4:1
That which is corruptible. When we are dead, sin is gone, because the physical manifestation is expired.
We are but a soul, a spirit, about to be judged, without a corruptible body to show for.
The corruptible, as it stands, must put on the incorruptible, as it stands, to have victory in Jesus Christ, and overcome death and sin.

Paul died daily 1 Cor 15:31
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Unread 05-23-2010, 09:21 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yes, I was a Christian and you have no right or authority to say otherwise. I despised universalists and their teaching, as well as any other teaching I deemed false, which was anything that conflicted with fundamentalism. Are you saying you have no malice towards universalists? Yeah, I thought so. If you do not love like we are commanded to love, which you can't do believing in ET, then you're not following Christ's commandments. ET runs counter to love, God's love.

Edit to add: It just hit me what you really said in your statement......that I wasn't a Christian when I believed in ET, but now that I believe in universalism I am a Christian!!! Oh my, imagine that.
Again, Urs not only twist the words of scripture, but they also twist the words of others...Yes i do have a right...it is called the first ammendment to the bill of rights...and the authority that i have is what the bible gives me...and no, i hold no malice towards anyone...yet, i believe what scripture says regarding ET...and no, that is not what i was saying...i said 'If you believed in ET AND had hate and anger in your heart, then you were not a true believer...and the love that the bible speaks of most of the time is love towards one another when the author is speaking to believers...context...context...context...Just because i believe in ET and love everyone does not negate the reality of ET...just as if i believe in ET and hate everyone and have anger does not make me a Christian...and we are commanded to love our enemy, to bless those who curse you and pray for those that despitefully use you...the samaritan, who are halfbreed jews and considered dogs to the 'pure' Jew, had compation on a non-Jew lying alongside the road, the 'pure' Jew gave him a wide birth and would not touch him or even speak to him, but not the Samaritan, he bandaged his wounds and took him to an inn and paid for him in order for him to recover...It was an example on what loving your enemy and strangers is...I am an 'ETr' and i do as such...but, this still does not negate that Hell is real and scripture speaks of it...
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Unread 05-23-2010, 09:28 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
According to Romans 5 verse 8 God did and still does and initially this is what matters because we all reflect in some shape or form the God we believe in .

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely (there's your unconditional love) will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
In Romans 5 he is speaking to fellow believers regarding themselves as believers...In 11 He is speaking of the house of Israel...

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:1 - Romans is addressed to the believers in Rome and Paul tells them as believers they are justified by Faith and are no longer God's enemies. And this is because of Christ Jesus that we believers are in this state.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:2 - By Christ we have access to God, we are no longer seperated from Him because of Sin for Christ paid the price.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

5:3 - Again speaking to believers when he says 'we'...this kind of like boot camp...if you endure to the end you graduate with health and strength that you did not possess when you began.

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5:4 - The more you experience, the stronger you become till things that would have brought you low in the past have no effect on you now.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

5:5,6 - The Holy Ghost is given unto believers imbueing us with God's love. Christ died for the us as believers, here Paul is still speaking to believers in Rome. When he speaks of being without strength, he is speaking of right after the death of Christ and after the acension believers had no strength until the promised One came which is the Holy Ghost, verse 6, points back to verse 5. And even during this span of weakness without the Holy Ghost, Paul is stateing that Christ was still the propitiation for our sins, and again, he is still speaking to believers in Rome here.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:7 - Here Paul is pointing out the differense between man's character and that of Christ.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5:8 - Then he goes onto say that while believers were yet Sinners, Christ blood paid the price. Again, Paul is still speaking to believers in Rome about themselves and what Christ did for them, not the whole world.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

5:9,10,11 - When Paul says we, he is counting himself among the believers in Rome. So, believers are justified by the blood of Christ. In addition to His dieing for believers before they were believers He has also saved the same from the wrath of the Father that will be poured out on the non-believer. The death of Christ reconciled believers to God and also saved believers by His being made alive again. But, not only are we justified and saved and reconciled through His blood, but because of His death believers sin's have been atoned for by that very blood. Again, Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome regarding being a believer, not the whole world.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

5:12 - Here it is speaking of physical death. Some might say that it is not fair to impute Adams Sin to his descendants and take away there physical life, but, i point you to the story of Jacob and Esau, God works the way He wants according to His own Counsel. We are not to question this.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

5:13, 14 - Here is a clearer understanding of 5:12, Even though their were men that did not sin as Adam had, which was simply disobeidience to God, there were still under the curse of Adam and there for were bound over to physical death, however, moral sin was not imputed to them of that span of time because the Law had not yet been given, so where there is no Law there cannot be transgressions. Even though Adam disobeyed God and was removed from Eden, he and his descendants were still able to talk with God and offer up sacrifices, not for sins but for gifts to God in appreciation for the care He has provided for them and not totally foresakeing them. You can gleen this from the OT in the part right after the Eden expulsion.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

5:15,16 - The last part of 14 indicates that Adam was an example of Christ, but not of the offense. For Adam disobeyed but Christ obeyed. Adam took away but Christ gives. Through Adam came sin and death, through Christ comes atonement and reconciliation. again, Paul is speaking to believers in Rome regarding their state as believers, not the state of the whole world.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

5:17,18,19 - Here Paul says all died a physical death because of Adam, but through Christ THEY WHICH RECEIVE, indicateing, not the whole world but, those that are elected to receive it through the regeneration of God's Holy Ghost. Paul later explains this election process of God's in detail. In 19, Paul switches to the word many from all, why? There is a difference between temporal and eternal. temporal/eternal justification, temporal/eternal salvation, temporal/eternal condemnation. Noah and his family were spared because of Noah's relationship with God, but the rest of the world was condemned to destruction. This was a temporal salvation with Noah, his physical life was spared. King Saul was for a time justified however, that was stripped from him by God and David was made King by God. Ananias and Saphira were judged for lieing to the Holy Ghost and there's was a temporal punishment, their physical lives were taken from them, no where in that reading of them was it indicated that they were eternally condemned, condemnation was not even mentioned. They were judged for their misdeed, but Christ already atoned for that so they merely lost their earthly lives. The flooding of the world was a temporal punishment, because their was no Law at that time and as Paul points out if there is no Law then there is no sin. So, the world has again become wicked, but, now there is the Law and disobeidience of the Law...So, through Christ's death their is temporal salvation for the world but eternal Salvation for the Chosen of God. God will not destroy the world because of sin like He did in the time of Noah, because Christ's death has temporarely atoned for it also. However, for the believer His death has an eternal atonement quality that can never be shattered.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Again, Paul is speaking to believers regarding there state of being in Christ Jesus, it gives hope. When he say 'we' he is not speaking of mankind but, exclusively of believers, this is indicated by his opening remarks in chapter 1...nowhere in this chapter does it indicate that he is speaking inclusively of the whole world, he is speaking to believers in Rome, his targeted audience of his letter is to believers in Rome giving them hope regarding their state of being in Christ...I'll cover Romans 11 later...
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Unread 05-23-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,582,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Again, Urs not only twist the words of scripture, but they also twist the words of others...Yes i do have a right...it is called the first ammendment to the bill of rights...and the authority that i have is what the bible gives me...and no, i hold no malice towards anyone...yet, i believe what scripture says regarding ET...and no, that is not what i was saying...i said 'If you believed in ET AND had hate and anger in your heart, then you were not a true believer...and the love that the bible speaks of most of the time is love towards one another when the author is speaking to believers...context...context...context...Just because i believe in ET and love everyone does not negate the reality of ET...just as if i believe in ET and hate everyone and have anger does not make me a Christian...and we are commanded to love our enemy, to bless those who curse you and pray for those that despitefully use you...the samaritan, who are halfbreed jews and considered dogs to the 'pure' Jew, had compation on a non-Jew lying alongside the road, the 'pure' Jew gave him a wide birth and would not touch him or even speak to him, but not the Samaritan, he bandaged his wounds and took him to an inn and paid for him in order for him to recover...It was an example on what loving your enemy and strangers is...I am an 'ETr' and i do as such...but, this still does not negate that Hell is real and scripture speaks of it...
Believe what you want Richard.....I'm just glad that God finally showed me the truth of universal reconciliation. There is not a literal fiery hell and the fact that you hold onto that belief shows a lack of God's love.
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