U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-23-2010, 10:33 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
You're making a mountain out of a molehill and it's not really anything that is worth discussing any further. You've completely missed the point, but that's not unusual.
I understood the point of the attempt...Man has the habit of saying 'I wouldn't do that to my fellow man, why would God do that then'...creating god in their own image instead of themselves in Gods image...only those that are born of the Spirit are God's childeren, those that are not are children of the Devil...so says scripture...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-23-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Agreed. My whole point is disregarding context to support the theory of UR, and that you don't have to be pre-mortem to accept Christ.
Amen to that, brother...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:10 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,254 posts, read 20,001,723 times
Reputation: 2109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
In Romans 5 he is speaking to fellow believers regarding themselves as believers...In 11 He is speaking of the house of Israel...

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:1 - Romans is addressed to the believers in Rome and Paul tells them as believers they are justified by Faith and are no longer God's enemies. And this is because of Christ Jesus that we believers are in this state.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:2 - By Christ we have access to God, we are no longer seperated from Him because of Sin for Christ paid the price.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

5:3 - Again speaking to believers when he says 'we'...this kind of like boot camp...if you endure to the end you graduate with health and strength that you did not possess when you began.

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5:4 - The more you experience, the stronger you become till things that would have brought you low in the past have no effect on you now.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

5:5,6 - The Holy Ghost is given unto believers imbueing us with God's love. Christ died for the us as believers, here Paul is still speaking to believers in Rome. When he speaks of being without strength, he is speaking of right after the death of Christ and after the acension believers had no strength until the promised One came which is the Holy Ghost, verse 6, points back to verse 5. And even during this span of weakness without the Holy Ghost, Paul is stateing that Christ was still the propitiation for our sins, and again, he is still speaking to believers in Rome here.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:7 - Here Paul is pointing out the differense between man's character and that of Christ.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5:8 - Then he goes onto say that while believers were yet Sinners, Christ blood paid the price. Again, Paul is still speaking to believers in Rome about themselves and what Christ did for them, not the whole world.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

5:9,10,11 - When Paul says we, he is counting himself among the believers in Rome. So, believers are justified by the blood of Christ. In addition to His dieing for believers before they were believers He has also saved the same from the wrath of the Father that will be poured out on the non-believer. The death of Christ reconciled believers to God and also saved believers by His being made alive again. But, not only are we justified and saved and reconciled through His blood, but because of His death believers sin's have been atoned for by that very blood. Again, Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome regarding being a believer, not the whole world.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

5:12 - Here it is speaking of physical death. Some might say that it is not fair to impute Adams Sin to his descendants and take away there physical life, but, i point you to the story of Jacob and Esau, God works the way He wants according to His own Counsel. We are not to question this.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

5:13, 14 - Here is a clearer understanding of 5:12, Even though their were men that did not sin as Adam had, which was simply disobeidience to God, there were still under the curse of Adam and there for were bound over to physical death, however, moral sin was not imputed to them of that span of time because the Law had not yet been given, so where there is no Law there cannot be transgressions. Even though Adam disobeyed God and was removed from Eden, he and his descendants were still able to talk with God and offer up sacrifices, not for sins but for gifts to God in appreciation for the care He has provided for them and not totally foresakeing them. You can gleen this from the OT in the part right after the Eden expulsion.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

5:15,16 - The last part of 14 indicates that Adam was an example of Christ, but not of the offense. For Adam disobeyed but Christ obeyed. Adam took away but Christ gives. Through Adam came sin and death, through Christ comes atonement and reconciliation. again, Paul is speaking to believers in Rome regarding their state as believers, not the state of the whole world.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

5:17,18,19 - Here Paul says all died a physical death because of Adam, but through Christ THEY WHICH RECEIVE, indicateing, not the whole world but, those that are elected to receive it through the regeneration of God's Holy Ghost. Paul later explains this election process of God's in detail. In 19, Paul switches to the word many from all, why? There is a difference between temporal and eternal. temporal/eternal justification, temporal/eternal salvation, temporal/eternal condemnation. Noah and his family were spared because of Noah's relationship with God, but the rest of the world was condemned to destruction. This was a temporal salvation with Noah, his physical life was spared. King Saul was for a time justified however, that was stripped from him by God and David was made King by God. Ananias and Saphira were judged for lieing to the Holy Ghost and there's was a temporal punishment, their physical lives were taken from them, no where in that reading of them was it indicated that they were eternally condemned, condemnation was not even mentioned. They were judged for their misdeed, but Christ already atoned for that so they merely lost their earthly lives. The flooding of the world was a temporal punishment, because their was no Law at that time and as Paul points out if there is no Law then there is no sin. So, the world has again become wicked, but, now there is the Law and disobeidience of the Law...So, through Christ's death their is temporal salvation for the world but eternal Salvation for the Chosen of God. God will not destroy the world because of sin like He did in the time of Noah, because Christ's death has temporarely atoned for it also. However, for the believer His death has an eternal atonement quality that can never be shattered.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Again, Paul is speaking to believers regarding there state of being in Christ Jesus, it gives hope. When he say 'we' he is not speaking of mankind but, exclusively of believers, this is indicated by his opening remarks in chapter 1...nowhere in this chapter does it indicate that he is speaking inclusively of the whole world, he is speaking to believers in Rome, his targeted audience of his letter is to believers in Rome giving them hope regarding their state of being in Christ...I'll cover Romans 11 later...
One verse that refutes all what you base your post on is

1 John 2 verse 2 , but of cause you believe the world to be the chosen (Calvinists)

and He Himself is (Thank God that He IS ) the 1propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world

Last edited by pcamps; 05-23-2010 at 11:24 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Believe what you want Richard.....I'm just glad that God finally showed me the truth of universal reconciliation. There is not a literal fiery hell and the fact that you hold onto that belief shows a lack of God's love.
No it does not...you go ahead and believe what you want...but, you cannot prove your theology through scripture...try it...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,632,775 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No it does not...you go ahead and believe what you want...but, you cannot prove your theology through scripture...try it...
Here you go Richard, tell me who are these people Richard:

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is being referred to as EVERY TONGUE in that verse?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,754,755 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No it does not...you go ahead and believe what you want...but, you cannot prove your theology through scripture...try it...
OH Richard, there's been plenty of scriptural support provided, you just don't want to remove the blinders of fundamentalism to see it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:27 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
One verse that refutes all what you base your post on is

1 John 2 verse 2 , but of cause you believe the world to be the chosen

and He Himself is (Thank God that He IS ) the 1propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world
Again, you do not know what you are talking about and are taking scripture out of context with the rest of scripture...there is a difference between temporal and eternal throughout the scriptures...and that verse does not refute it, you are creating a doctrine around one verse...i on the other hand have systematically went through Romans 5 and i can do it with any book in the Bible...you are using one verse to validate UR...and it is just wrong no matter how you delude yourself...And God said He would send strong delusions so they would believe a different Gospel...Oh, well...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Here you go Richard, tell me who are these people Richard:

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is being referred to as EVERY TONGUE in that verse?
So, when it says that everyone in the world praised God because of the saints...does that mean the whole world?...God says He will reserve to Himself a people from every nation and tongue and tribe...does that mean that everyone from every tribe, tongue and nation?...or does it mean just what it says that He will reserve from?...it also says that the world will hate you because of Me...so, does that mean the whole world?..or just those that are non-believers?..Again, another person that takes a verse out of context and builds a doctrine around it....Find me this thread through the entire bible and maybe you might have a chance in convincing me that this fable is true...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:37 AM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
OH Richard, there's been plenty of scriptural support provided, you just don't want to remove the blinders of fundamentalism to see it.
Well, then prove it to me...without taking scripture out of context...and what does fundamentalism mean to you?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,632,775 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
So, when it says that everyone in the world praised God because of the saints...does that mean the whole world?...God says He will reserve to Himself a people from every nation and tongue and tribe...does that mean that everyone from every tribe, tongue and nation?...or does it mean just what it says that He will reserve from?...it also says that the world will hate you because of Me...so, does that mean the whole world?..or just those that are non-believers?..Again, another person that takes a verse out of context and builds a doctrine around it....Find me this thread through the entire bible and maybe you might have a chance in convincing me that this fable is true...
I asked who was being referred to by EVERY TONGUE. So Richard answers the question with a question.

So Richard, I will ask again, who are those being referred to as "Every Tongue" in Php 2:11?

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top