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I responded because the arguments made in the OP (and in some of the similar threads) imply that most unversalists believe that one can be saved apart from
- believing the gospel,
- being born again,
- having true faith in Christ,
That is simply not the case. The vast majority of "universalist" people and websites I've encountered teach that all mankind will be saved through Christ, not outside of Christ.
through means via...One cannot believe as he wishes and be saved...it is only through (via) Christ one is saved...faith is unto Salvation...Faith in what?...Christ...there is none other under heaven that we are saved by...the gaychurch.org is universalist in nature and belief...and even twisting the Scripture regarding David and Johnathan's relationship and love for one another, even in direct contradiction of Lev. 18:22...I've seen the twistings of scripture long enough to recognize when it is being done to support a false theology...
I have and I disagree. It's only there when reading through the lense of what you already believe.
For example this verse is often given:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
And this verse is generally offered up as absolute proof without any explanation needed.
But since when does "judgment" in scripture imply "you can no longer repent" or "you can repent but God won't ever respond". It doesn't. There are oodles of judgments, sentences from God, wrath of God ignited, in scripture followed by repentence and eventual (but not always immediate) mercy from God. So "judgment" does not imply "it's too late" but when read through the lense of ET that's all that most Christians can see in that word.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Here is scripture that says they were cast into the lake of fire, however it does not say that they will be there forever...i have spoken with Urs that state that even the devil and his angels will be saved because God says He will recononcile ALL to Himself...But, let's look on father in the Scripture...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So, this verse here dismantles that false theology altogether...
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
So, the lake of Fire that burns forever and ever is a component of the Second death, and it also states that those not found written in the book of life are to experience the second death, and the second death is in the lake of fire that burns forever and ever....so, regarding these statements of Christ in Revelations it is obvious that either God is not going to reconcile the world to himself, in cluding the Devil and his angel and false prophet and beast...and that those not found written in the book of life are going to get what the afore mentioned are going to get...the second death...which is the lake of fire which burns forever and ever...
This is something that I could have written. And you have a point about Santa Claus......those who are not good still receive good things. Maybe we can't really compare this to biblical things but we are made in God's image and I think the things we do reflect that image.
Great post BHFT!!!
The Tradition of Santa Claus is that if you are naughty you get coal in your stocking....wow, you guys are even twisting and adding to myths to suit your own needs...
The connection isn't nearly always as far-fetched as you think, unfortunately (although in this specific case I cannot say if it is accurate or not).
I've lived around ETers for years, I've seen how their doctrine of God's wrath toward man has become THEIR wrath towards man, too. If God hates sinners, then so do His followers. They say, "love the sinner, hate the sin," but their actions speak otherwise.
And I've seen people who believe in the Overcoming Power of Love, and the consequential love they show towards others who are different than themselves.
The fact is, is that if you believe in ET, then you also believe in a God who has failed to save the world. And a God who has failed will cause wrath in anybody's heart; and the consequences of that towards those around us is simply unavoidable.
I've seen it, maybe you haven't. My experience tells me otherwise.
And they are in a sense hypocrites because they say they follow a Man who died for sinners, but they themselves would do nothing of the kind, they are interested in their own well-being.
Blessings to you in spite of my rant!,
brian
I've known and still know people that believe in ET that are very loving people, so, your singular experience proves nothing, brian...I have also met Ur folks that are hateful people...so, your singular experience, again, means nothing...The people that beat there kids in the name of God are, to my observation, OCD type people or people that just pick certain portions from the bible to justify there violent nature...I believe in ET yet i love everyone unconditionally, i believe in predestination, yet love everyone...the night i was regeneraed, God took the hate right out of me and gave me peace...as opposed to before i did hate a lot...if someone crossed me i would stew about it and try to figure out a way to get even and sometimes with a desire to kill them without getting caught...all, that was removed from my heart and to this day i can no longer hate people no matter what they do to me or others...that does not mean i will not protect myself if attacked or defend those that cannot defend themselves...yet, i still believe in ET...So, my own personal experience dismantles your theology...
Even though i have grown to the point of not needing a persons recognition, i still have to say thanks for the thumbs up...Bless you...
I truly understand and agree!! That is why I don't like doing it as I use too.
Yet, when you read someone who is speaking and leading other's in the truth of God's word, my giving thumbs up is the recognition of that truth and I am receiving a confirmation from my Lord what He has been leading and speaking to my heart !!!
The Tradition of Santa Claus is that if you are naughty you get coal in your stocking....wow, you guys are even twisting and adding to myths to suit your own needs...
Have you ever known of one single solitary child that has actually received coal in their stocking, other than the movies??? Exactly. That's the point that BHFT was trying to make.....that it is likened to the belief that ALL are loved and that ALL will be reconciled.
Amen Ahigherway!!! I've experienced first hand through a parent and ET and the threat of it came with rants and fists.....ETers are NOT full of love, they are full of condemnation and self-righteousness. I can say that because I was one. I know how I felt and the anger that was inside of me showed in the way I treated other people. It's a horrid, disgusting belief that I pray is slowly but surely on it's way out.
Then you were not a genuine Christian if you believed in ET and there was hate and anger in your heart...
I truly understand and agree!! That is why I don't like doing it as I use too.
Yet, when you read someone who is speaking and leading other's in the truth of God's word, my giving thumbs up is the recognition of that truth and I am receiving a confirmation from my Lord what He has been leading and speaking to my heart !!!
Blessings to you ....
Tell me, do YOU love everyone unconditionally yet believe in ET?...
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