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Old 05-23-2010, 01:09 AM
 
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What are your thoughts on the timing of death, resurrection and judgment.

With the second death what I have previously thought is that judgment and second death precedes the resurrection.
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:07 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Hi Meerkat,

Hebrews 9:27
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I wonder about the same things......is it the first death, judgment and then resurrection or do we have to be resurrected to be judged? This verse does not say that.

Maybe it's just a broad statement and the resurrected part is assumed. We must be resurrected in order to be judged.

This might not be what you were referring to but it's all a little confusing to me. I'm assuming the second death is the death of death itself and has nothing to do with humanity being a part of it. I don't know, help me out here somebody.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Hi Meerkat,

Hebrews 9:27
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I wonder about the same things......is it the first death, judgment and then resurrection or do we have to be resurrected to be judged? This verse does not say that.

Maybe it's just a broad statement and the resurrected part is assumed. We must be resurrected in order to be judged.

This might not be what you were referring to but it's all a little confusing to me. I'm assuming the second death is the death of death itself and has nothing to do with humanity being a part of it. I don't know, help me out here somebody.
Hi Ilene,

That is exactly what I am getting at. Following is some jumbled thoughts I am having - let me know what does not make sense.

What I have noticed is that in Revelation the only things that are mentioned are the first resurrection - and the second death. First death and second resurrection are not mentioned. Also when the dead stand for judgment there is no mention of resurrection at that stage. What I wonder is if the second death is also the second resurrection. The 2 are combined -

I am thinking that it is the actual process of being judged. Separating out the carnal nature soul from the spirit. In Rev 14 those that "worship the beast" are tormented in brimstone and fire in the presence of the lamb and the Holy Angels. Or because of ??

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


In both the Peter and Revelation passages there is the mention of the gospel and judgment


What I notice In Rev 14:10-12 is that following verse Rev 14:11 it says here is the patience of the saints - which means in this place which is the torment in the presence of the lamb and it reminds me of this

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {The word of God = Jesus = the Lamb}

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:26 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hi Ilene,

That is exactly what I am getting at. Following is some jumbled thoughts I am having - let me know what does not make sense.
LOL!! Can't be any more jumbled than mine!

Quote:
What I have noticed is that in Revelation the only things that are mentioned are the first resurrection - and the second death. First death and second resurrection are not mentioned. Also when the dead stand for judgment there is no mention of resurrection at that stage. What I wonder is if the second death is also the second resurrection. The 2 are combined -
Let me break this down so I can kind of get where you're going. That's true, the first resurrection and the second death are mentioned only. And there is NO mention of resurrection at that time.....hmmmm.....2nd death also the 2nd resurrection? Maybe so!

Quote:
I am thinking that it is the actual process of being judged. Separating out the carnal nature soul from the spirit. In Rev 14 those that "worship the beast" are tormented in brimstone and fire in the presence of the lamb and the Holy Angels. Or because of ??
Now I have never thought of that! I'm still going hmmmm......

Quote:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


In both the Peter and Revelation passages there is the mention of the gospel and judgment


What I notice In Rev 14:10-12 is that following verse Rev 14:11 it says here is the patience of the saints - which means in this place which is the torment in the presence of the lamb and it reminds me of this

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {The word of God = Jesus = the Lamb}

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Well it all seems to tie together, doesn't it? Thanks Meerkat, I never would have thought to look at the 2nd death and the 2nd resurrection as one in the same thing. VERY interesting.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:54 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Rev 20:14 tells us exactly what the second death is: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Definitions can be given backward, so let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death is death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death?

It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire.

This fact is very important. The second death is not merely the lake of fire, or men being tortured for ever in the lake of fire. Everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to death - death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire.

But did we notice what Rev 2:11 has to say? "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death." It does not say that the overcomer experiences nothing of the second death, that he does not pass through it, or that its work is not wrought in his life; but the thought is that he will not be "hurt" by it. It is possible to pass through the most terrible experience and not be hurt by it.

Think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: and when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you" (Isa. 43:2).

The ready solution of the difficulty is - for us to die to sin, or to kill the evil desire lurking in our bodily members. To die to any reality is to withdraw correspondence with it, to cut ourselves off from all communication with it. The solution of the problem will simply be this, for the spiritual life to reverse continually the processes of the fleshly life. The spiritual man having passed from death unto life - the fleshly man must next proceed to pass from life unto death. Regeneration of the spirit in short must be accompanied by degeneration of the flesh, the carnal mind. And this death process is the second death - the death of death! Now it is no surprise to find that this is the process everywhere described and recommended by the Holy Spirit! Paul asked the burning question, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" and swift came the answer, "O thank God! - HE WILL - through Jesus Christ our Lord! " (Rom. 7:24-25).
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:12 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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I was just wondering Meerkat.....you mentioned Universal reconciliation in your title......when do you think this happens? Is it a collective thing or does each person get reconciled individually after they have served their "sentence", so to speak?
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What are your thoughts on the timing of death, resurrection and judgment.

With the second death what I have previously thought is that judgment and second death precedes the resurrection.
I believe that the First Resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the righteous, including the repentent sinners who have accepted Christ) to be at the beginning of His millennial reign. The Second Resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the wicked) will come at the end of the Millennium.
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What are your thoughts on the timing of death, resurrection and judgment.

With the second death what I have previously thought is that judgment and second death precedes the resurrection.
I believe that the scriptures primarily speak to us of spiritual events as opposed to past or future historical events, but they also speak of past and future historical events using the same words. I suspect we run into difficulties when we mix the spiritual events with the past/present/future/historical events and then try to sequence them.
  • 1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Your question is about death, judgment, ressurection but the scriptures speak of multiple kinds of each of these: physical death, death in trespasses and sins, second death, dying in Christ, judgment (krisis), down-judgment (katakrisis) ressurection to condemnation, ressurection to life.

As far as the sequencing of the spiritual events... this is my working hypothesis which I gleen from "the sum of th word is truth"...

1. Death (i.e. dead in tresspasses and sin)
in the day thou eat thereof thou shallt surely die
dead people proceeding through the wide gate
God gives warning to flee the wrath to come i.e. God "dungs" the tree then God gives time to repent, twelve months (Daniel 4:29, Luke 13:8)
Longsuffering upon the vessels of dishonor
...
...
...
God inspects the tree again and finds it not bearning fruit
Jesus comes as a thief in the night

2. Resurrection to condemnation --> katakrisis
culmination of going through the wide gate
my word will condemn him in the last day
God rains fire and snares upon the wicked
day of vengeance of our God / day of the LORD
tree cut down and cast in the fire
no mercy upon the vessels of dishonor
lake of fire / gehenna / cast outside the kingdom
the wrath of God abides on him
second death (hurt by)
weeping & gnashing of teeth
...
...
...

3. Faith comes
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (the exectution thereof) "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee Deut 30:1"
repentance
turning to Christ with all your heart and soul
going through the narrow gate
acceptable year of the LORD
mercy
second death continues (not hurt by)
...

4. Resurrection to life
fiery trials, God tries the righteous in fire
judgment (krisis, not katakrisis) upon the household of faith
dying daily, taking up our cross and following Christ, lose our life for the LORD
second death continues (not hurt by) who can abide the everlasting burnings? he who walks righteously



All of these can take place prior to physical death
  • John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
  • Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
  • Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
  • Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh
  • Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-23-2010 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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I agree with some of you that the second death refers to the action of death.. i=It will be consumed in the lake of fire along with all the sins that are of this world..No human bodies, or souls are thrown there..We will be with God..

IMO the lake of fire is simply an analogy that tells us that death and sin will no longer exist..
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I agree with some of you that the second death refers to the action of death.. i=It will be consumed in the lake of fire along with all the sins that are of this world..No human bodies, or souls are thrown there..We will be with God..

IMO the lake of fire is simply an analogy that tells us that death and sin will no longer exist..
Death is merely the absence of Life therefore, the only means to destroying death is with Life. Therefore, Life is what destroys death.
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