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Old 05-29-2010, 02:37 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 454,899 times
Reputation: 385

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
There will be no excuse on the day of judgement. Because God has provided many ways, audio (as in hearing the word of God spoken) or visual with their eyes, nature and etc. to reveal Himself to the world !!

Please explain to me why you are using something not true to defend what you believe.
Thanks !!
What You have listed here is physical things about hearing the gospel ---- my conversion was a spiritual thing ...... I heard physically when I was young but there was a discrepancy between what I felt and what I was hearing from the pulpit and the actions of the "christians" that I could not reconcile........ it took me a long time to comprehend that discrepancy where it was coming from, to listen with 'spiritual' ears.......

We are all basing our interpretations of what scripture says on what we are told, by what others believe, and also our perceptions of what the Spirit (Christ) is trying to tell us in our spirit --- these message boards are funny things where we are all pouring our hearts out, and we are all at different stages in maturity (I am still a "babe" ) and also have a varied range of communication skills and of listening to the Holy Spirit...........

Thanks for telling me I am telling lies

I think I will just leave this because you are not understanding what I am saying and it seems a bit pointless at this stage.........
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,893,921 times
Reputation: 9963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
For the scripture does teach that God will reveal Himself to all men, every living soul born !!
Yes it does, but it doesn't say when this will happen. When I hear people insist that it will happen to everybody before they die, it just seems to me that this is a tremendously naive statement to make. Besides, what does this really mean -- that God will reveal Himself to people? Does it mean that everyone has an inborn sense that there is a Higher Power? Perhaps. But will the Abrahamic God be satisfied that a Hindu sees Him in a very different way than a Christian does? Suppose you had been born and raised in North Korea. How likely do you believe it is that you would believe in God? I'd say very realistically that it's highly unlikely.

I knew a woman once who was raised in one of the Eastern European countries while it was under communism. She was a kind, gentle woman and a pediatarician. She was also an atheist. Atheism was all she had ever known, and it had been ingrained in her mind by the society she grew up in that there was no God. She once said something that really touched me. She said that she often wished, when she was treating a dying child, that she believed in a Higher Power she could turn to for help. She wanted to believe. She just couldn't, and it was because of her background, what she'd been taught since she was a small child. I just think life is much too complicated for us to be able to say with any degree of conviction that God will reveal Himself to everyone during their lifetime. My belief, that learning goes on during the period between when we die and when we are resurrected, is a tremendous comfort to me because I too believe God will reveal Himself to all. I just don't believe it has to happen during our mortal lives.
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:41 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 454,899 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes it does, but it doesn't say when this will happen. When I hear people insist that it will happen to everybody before they die, it just seems to me that this is a tremendously naive statement to make. Besides, what does this really mean -- that God will reveal Himself to people? Does it mean that everyone has an inborn sense that there is a Higher Power? Perhaps. But will the Abrahamic God be satisfied that a Hindu sees Him in a very different way than a Christian does? Suppose you had been born and raised in North Korea. How likely do you believe it is that you would believe in God? I'd say very realistically that it's highly unlikely.

I knew a woman once who was raised in one of the Eastern European countries while it was under communism. She was a kind, gentle woman and a pediatarician. She was also an atheist. Atheism was all she had ever known, and it had been ingrained in her mind by the society she grew up in that there was no God. She once said something that really touched me. She said that she often wished, when she was treating a dying child, that she believed in a Higher Power she could turn to for help. She wanted to believe. She just couldn't, and it was because of her background, what she'd been taught since she was a small child. I just think life is much too complicated for us to be able to say with any degree of conviction that God will reveal Himself to everyone during their lifetime. My belief, that learning goes on during the period between when we die and when we are resurrected, is a tremendous comfort to me because I too believe God will reveal Himself to all. I just don't believe it has to happen during our mortal lives.
Kat -- thanks for the words that are in my mind but are not coming out of the keyboard
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Old 05-29-2010, 03:49 PM
 
5,738 posts, read 4,585,628 times
Reputation: 4160
God is in control.
Just my opinion here, but to me, faith isn't "oh well, people are going to some place where they will be tormented forever, or maybe they'll just POOF! dissapear like they never even existed, as if God somehow made a mistake.... but I trust God."
For me, faith is knowing with full assurance that we CAN trust God.
Because HE is good.
HE is love.
And His plan is perfect.
How could His plan possibly NOT be perfect?
Let's remember WHO we are talking about here.
The CREATOR of the universe.
Have ya looked around at the universe lately?
Yeah. The One created THAT.
The One who is called our Father.


Let's look at the beautiful verse again:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Faith... yes.
That no matter how far in the darkness mankind currently finds himself in presently, His hand will reach farther and WILL reach us. THIS is faith.
Faith in the GOODNESS and LOVE of our FATHER.
No matter what darkness we or our brothers and sisters (all of humanity) are currently in, we know that HIS will be done. He is reconciling ALL.
On HIS timetable. Not ours.

Faith isn't "oh well, God WANTS us to choose Him... but oh such a pity, the countless millions who are headed for annihilation or eternal torment (ha! said so flippantly!)...such a shame.. but I have faith in MY god. I have faith that it's His plan...and that's all I need to know." No matter WHAT may be screaming at them from deep within their spirits.


No. How humorous it is when you truly think about it... to think that WE, us little ants could "foil" God's master plan. Sometimes, I find it a tad humiliating to think that some of my beloved sisters and brothers think we actually have SUCH power.


I trust God. 100%. To do the right thing for ALL of humanity.
ALL. He is our Father.

ye of little faith...
BELIEVE!

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.



Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

I don't know about you all, but I'm starting my singing NOW in my little corner of the world. Anyone care to join me??

peace,
Have a nice weekend.
sparrow
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:14 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 454,899 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
God is in control.
Just my opinion here, but to me, faith isn't "oh well, people are going to some place where they will be tormented forever, or maybe they'll just POOF! dissapear like they never even existed, as if God somehow made a mistake.... but I trust God."
For me, faith is knowing with full assurance that we CAN trust God.
Because HE is good.
HE is love.
And His plan is perfect.
How could His plan possibly NOT be perfect?
Let's remember WHO we are talking about here.
The CREATOR of the universe.
Have ya looked around at the universe lately?
Yeah. The One created THAT.
The One who is called our Father.


Let's look at the beautiful verse again:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Faith... yes.
That no matter how far in the darkness mankind currently finds himself in presently, His hand will reach farther and WILL reach us. THIS is faith.
Faith in the GOODNESS and LOVE of our FATHER.
No matter what darkness we or our brothers and sisters (all of humanity) are currently in, we know that HIS will be done. He is reconciling ALL.
On HIS timetable. Not ours.

Faith isn't "oh well, God WANTS us to choose Him... but oh such a pity, the countless millions who are headed for annihilation or eternal torment (ha! said so flippantly!)...such a shame.. but I have faith in MY god. I have faith that it's His plan...and that's all I need to know." No matter WHAT may be screaming at them from deep within their spirits.


No. How humorous it is when you truly think about it... to think that WE, us little ants could "foil" God's master plan. Sometimes, I find it a tad humiliating to think that some of my beloved sisters and brothers think we actually have SUCH power.


I trust God. 100%. To do the right thing for ALL of humanity.
ALL. He is our Father.

ye of little faith...
BELIEVE!

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.



Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

I don't know about you all, but I'm starting my singing NOW in my little corner of the world. Anyone care to join me??

peace,
Have a nice weekend.
sparrow
Sparrow - yes!!! Amen ... HIS will be done....
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Old 05-29-2010, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,552 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
God is in control.
Just my opinion here, but to me, faith isn't "oh well, people are going to some place where they will be tormented forever, or maybe they'll just POOF! dissapear like they never even existed, as if God somehow made a mistake.... but I trust God."
For me, faith is knowing with full assurance that we CAN trust God.
Because HE is good.
HE is love.
And His plan is perfect.
How could His plan possibly NOT be perfect?
Let's remember WHO we are talking about here.
The CREATOR of the universe.
Have ya looked around at the universe lately?
Yeah. The One created THAT.
The One who is called our Father.


Let's look at the beautiful verse again:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Faith... yes.
That no matter how far in the darkness mankind currently finds himself in presently, His hand will reach farther and WILL reach us. THIS is faith.
Faith in the GOODNESS and LOVE of our FATHER.
No matter what darkness we or our brothers and sisters (all of humanity) are currently in, we know that HIS will be done. He is reconciling ALL.
On HIS timetable. Not ours.

Faith isn't "oh well, God WANTS us to choose Him... but oh such a pity, the countless millions who are headed for annihilation or eternal torment (ha! said so flippantly!)...such a shame.. but I have faith in MY god. I have faith that it's His plan...and that's all I need to know." No matter WHAT may be screaming at them from deep within their spirits.


No. How humorous it is when you truly think about it... to think that WE, us little ants could "foil" God's master plan. Sometimes, I find it a tad humiliating to think that some of my beloved sisters and brothers think we actually have SUCH power.


I trust God. 100%. To do the right thing for ALL of humanity.
ALL. He is our Father.

ye of little faith...
BELIEVE!

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.



Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

I don't know about you all, but I'm starting my singing NOW in my little corner of the world. Anyone care to join me??

peace,
Have a nice weekend.
sparrow

I'll join you, sparrow. (sometimes it's hard to sing, though). I'll keep trying. Thanks for posting my favorite verse.
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Old 05-29-2010, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,552 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes it does, but it doesn't say when this will happen. When I hear people insist that it will happen to everybody before they die, it just seems to me that this is a tremendously naive statement to make. Besides, what does this really mean -- that God will reveal Himself to people? Does it mean that everyone has an inborn sense that there is a Higher Power? Perhaps. But will the Abrahamic God be satisfied that a Hindu sees Him in a very different way than a Christian does? Suppose you had been born and raised in North Korea. How likely do you believe it is that you would believe in God? I'd say very realistically that it's highly unlikely.

I knew a woman once who was raised in one of the Eastern European countries while it was under communism. She was a kind, gentle woman and a pediatarician. She was also an atheist. Atheism was all she had ever known, and it had been ingrained in her mind by the society she grew up in that there was no God. She once said something that really touched me. She said that she often wished, when she was treating a dying child, that she believed in a Higher Power she could turn to for help. She wanted to believe. She just couldn't, and it was because of her background, what she'd been taught since she was a small child. I just think life is much too complicated for us to be able to say with any degree of conviction that God will reveal Himself to
everyone during their lifetime. My belief, that learning goes on during the period between when we die and when we are resurrected, is a tremendous comfort to me because I too believe God will reveal Himself to all. I just don't believe it has to happen during our mortal lives.

I think about those in North Korea quite a bit. Completely sheltered and disconnected from absolutely EVERYTHING except what their Dear Leader wants them to know

When I got back from Brazil is when I really had a meltdown. Just seeing all the chaos, mayhem, poverty, and darkness everywhere got me thinking. The
whole world is in the dark. Even your average Christian doesn't seem to know what is going on. Some of that journey is what led me to UR.

There has to be some kind of bigger plan going on here than just a couple of people here and there getting some light in this lifetime leaving the rest in the dark and never (in a billion years) seeing any hope.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:06 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,044,564 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
You give me the scripture that says he will do it all before we die
NO.... not until you show me where does it says this in the Scripture, "those that we know never heard of Jesus so they never had a chance to be saved from the eternal hell"

This is so typical of a universalist who state things and say it is scriptural and when confronted with the truth they twist it because they can not answer with support of the scripture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What You have listed here is physical things about hearing the gospel ---- my conversion was a spiritual thing ...... I heard physically when I was young but there was a discrepancy between what I felt and what I was hearing from the pulpit and the actions of the "Christians" that I could not reconcile........ it took me a long time to comprehend that discrepancy where it was coming from, to listen with 'spiritual' ears.......

We are all basing our interpretations of what scripture says on what we are told, by what others believe, and also our perceptions of what the Spirit (Christ) is trying to tell us in our spirit --- these message boards are funny things where we are all pouring our hearts out, and we are all at different stages in maturity (I am still a "babe" ) and also have a varied range of communication skills and of listening to the Holy Spirit...........

Thanks for telling me I am telling lies

I think I will just leave this because you are not understanding what I am saying and it seems a bit pointless at this stage.........
How did you hear about universalism, meerkat....? hint: ears
meerkat, learning begins with the physical, ears, eyes, etc., then the Holy Spirit takes the truth of what we hear, see (reading) to the spiritual level, giving us the faith to believe and understand God's truth.
You are making no sense whatsoever, meerkat, and this does not surprise me at all. You have allowed a lie to deceive you and can not back-up what you said with scripture so your making excuses to justify what you stated, because it is not truth....
.... it is obvious you are listening to false teachers who are teaching heresy and error of God's word rather then seeking God and His word on your own, your repeating and believing what others say, then God.

Meerkat, this is a dangerous thing to believe...." We are all basing our interpretations of what scripture says on what we are told, by what others believe," we never take what other's say or interpret what the word of God is saying, not even on our own interpretation should we trust! One should always turn to the written word with the help of the Spirit of God to lead us...... when other's state something to be truth, we are to take it to the written word and see if it stands in the light of truth. The Holy Spirit will never lead one away from the truth into lies.

Have you taken your statement of "those that we know never heard of Jesus so they never had a chance to be saved from the eternal hell" to the scripture and see what God says if it is truth or error ?

This is why you can not answer my questions, you have never studied the truth of your statement and assumed because other's have said it, it must be true....

No, it isn't pointless meerkat, your salvation is very important to me and watching you being deceived by a false teaching breaks my heart. And you making the remarks in your post bothers me, because you are not seeking God on your own, but basing your faith on what other people say. It is a form of brainwashing, meerkat !! Please, please get into the word of God, ask His Spirit to show and cleanse all false teaching you have allowed to enter your heart.

I didn't mean you were telling lies, meerkat, what I meant was why repeat something that is a lie..... sorry you misunderstood what I was saying.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:17 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,223 posts, read 19,991,820 times
Reputation: 2108
Hi Latte Chic

Can someone be condemned and worse still be condemned to eternal torment for being in ignorance (Acts 17 verse 30) .

You asked for a scripture , what i will say is this , throughout scripture it testify's that God is just(there's the scripture you asked for) , do you really think it would be consistent of His just character to condemn those who had never heard ?.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:34 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,044,564 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes it does, but it doesn't say when this will happen. When I hear people insist that it will happen to everybody before they die, it just seems to me that this is a tremendously naive statement to make. Besides, what does this really mean -- that God will reveal Himself to people? Does it mean that everyone has an inborn sense that there is a Higher Power? Perhaps. But will the Abrahamic God be satisfied that a Hindu sees Him in a very different way than a Christian does? Suppose you had been born and raised in North Korea. How likely do you believe it is that you would believe in God? I'd say very realistically that it's highly unlikely.

I knew a woman once who was raised in one of the Eastern European countries while it was under communism. She was a kind, gentle woman and a pediatarician. She was also an atheist. Atheism was all she had ever known, and it had been ingrained in her mind by the society she grew up in that there was no God. She once said something that really touched me. She said that she often wished, when she was treating a dying child, that she believed in a Higher Power she could turn to for help. She wanted to believe. She just couldn't, and it was because of her background, what she'd been taught since she was a small child. I just think life is much too complicated for us to be able to say with any degree of conviction that God will reveal Himself to everyone during their lifetime. My belief, that learning goes on during the period between when we die and when we are resurrected, is a tremendous comfort to me because I too believe God will reveal Himself to all. I just don't believe it has to happen during our mortal lives.
Naive...... so faith is a naive thing now...
Well my belief is that God will reveal Himself to all men because the written word of God does teaches this !!!

Thanks for your story of the atheist women, it shows God does reveal Himself to people..... even if He was called a "Higher Power." Her heart knew their is something beyond the existance of the human knowledge and abilities.....
She could or would not have even acknowledge such a thing as an higher power, if God had not reveal something to her, even if she did choose not to believe !!

"She said that she often wished, when she was treating a dying child, that she believed in a Higher Power she could turn to for help. She wanted to believe."

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