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Old 05-30-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
LOL. If you hear Christ knocking at the door, then who found who? All you need to do is open the door and let him enter.

I think you are too quick to accuse others of pride and boasting, when it is obvious you are the one guilty of it yourself. You are looking down at the "brainwashed Christians" and boast that you are the smart one who has it all figured out. Not only that, but you also build your argument around a claim that no one has made. No one has said God is not needed for salvation, so why do you insist that someone has said so?

PS Your comments prove you have no clue what Jesus means by "narrow gate".

BTW Why are you so angry?
Oh so you believe that all though he found you , you still had your part to play , in otherwords all though he found me , what i really mean is i found Him when i opened the door.

So let's get this straight he knocked at your door and then you answered and then you went in search of a narrow gate, or maybe it was the other way round(listen to what you are saying) , what part of this Mickey Mouse gospel is salvation ? when you opened a door or when you discovered the narrow gate .

Angry because i am against what you believe ? fair enough .

I'm that angry i want to tell all who don't believe how i believe or believe in the orthodox gospel i believe in they are going straight to eternal torment .
Vindication that the OP is correct.

What is there to boast in or be proud of when you believe the whole of salvation is down to Him ?. That's pretty humbling if you ask me .

What part of "if you hear him knocking you better open the door" , isn't anything but a threat ?

Here's another angry threat i mean love in action
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. It is not all about love. Love does not drown truth. You reject the Bible. You reject the truth. Then wait and discover the truth after you die. After it is to late to do anything about it. Final comment.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-30-2010 at 01:47 PM..
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Oh so you believe that all though he found you , you still had your part to play , in otherwords all though he found me , what i really mean is i found Him when i opened the door.

So let's get this straight he knocked at your door and then you answered and then you went in search of a narrow gate, or maybe it was the other way round(listen to what you are saying) , what part of this Mickey Mouse gospel is salvation ? when you opened a door or when you discovered the narrow gate .

Angry because i am against what you believe ? fair enough .

I'm that angry i want to tell all who don't believe how i believe or believe in the orthodox gospel i believe in they are going straight to eternal torment .
Vindication that the OP is correct.

What is there to boast in or be proud of when you believe the whole of salvation is down to Him ?. That's pretty humbling if you ask me .

What part of "if you hear him knocking you better open the door" , isn't anything but a threat ?

Yes, you have a part to play. That is what the Bible teaches. You have a choise to make: you need to choose between the narrow gate and the wide gate, because one leads to life, and the other to destruction. Again, it is not complicated.

Choose wisely, my angry universalist friend.


"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:57 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,175 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
NO.... not until you show me where does it says this in the Scripture, "those that we know never heard of Jesus so they never had a chance to be saved from the eternal hell"

This is so typical of a universalist who state things and say it is scriptural and when confronted with the truth they twist it because they can not answer with support of the scripture.
Latte,

I know there is not a scripture that says that those that never heard of Jesus will be cast into eternal hell.

That is because it is a calvinist doctrine based on "election" which is in scripture, it is doctrine piecing together different scriptures and taught to people ---- the same as the doctrine of "eternal hell" itself is made by piecing together scripture. It is taking physical things that are told to the physical Jews and put together with "the lake of fire" to say that people are judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" to be tormented eternally.

but what I "see" is that the lake of fire is that judgment, the second death and resurrection is FROM death -----> everybody is judged for their works

But we are told that salvation is by GRACE not works our works do not save us, but we are judged on our works

Quote:
How did you hear about universalism, meerkat....? hint: ears
meerkat, learning begins with the physical, ears, eyes, etc., then the Holy Spirit takes the truth of what we hear, see (reading) to the spiritual level, giving us the faith to believe and understand God's truth.

No, it isn't pointless meerkat, your salvation is very important to me and watching you being deceived by a false teaching breaks my heart. And you making the remarks in your post bothers me, because you are not seeking God on your own, but basing your faith on what other people say. It is a form of brainwashing, meerkat !! Please, please get into the word of God, ask His Spirit to show and cleanse all false teaching you have allowed to enter your heart.

I didn't mean you were telling lies, meerkat, what I meant was why repeat something that is a lie..... sorry you misunderstood what I was saying.
Just to let you know that I am not just believing what any universalist or ET'er or fundamentalist or preterist or calvinist or arminian or OSAS or trinitarian or sabbatarian says - I will not just agree with a human because they say so --

What I am doing is looking at all of what you are saying, and all of you are saying is a lot of diverse things and checking it with scripture and not twisting a passage to mean something different to what it say because of other scripture, but also not just putting together different passages to come to "a doctrine"

UR, ET and AN was only part of what I was looking and continue to look at and I see Gods plan is a whole (and us humans tend to only look at part of his plan and say it is the whole plan)

And the traditional one is 'believe and be saved from eternal torment'

-- he has subjected all humans to futility old creation -- and he will have mercy on all , the new creation

If we look at this scripture 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

You will tell me that it does NOT mean what it says

you will either tell me that it means he is the potential saviour or that specially means ONLY

Or Romans 11

It talks about how gentiles were originally in unbelief and then physical Israel in unbelief so that salvation comes to the gentiles and the reason God does this is so that he can put all in unbelief at some stage so that he can have mercy on all.

In verse 8 it says that God gives the spirit of slumber so that they do not "hear" and "see"

I believe as you do that we do physically see with our eyes and hear physical with our ear and then the Holy Spirit takes it to the spiritual level -- but it seems he also has only chose some to reveal things to.........

Jesus revealed things to his disciples and hid things from the multitudes..........
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Old 05-31-2010, 05:50 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,040,760 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Is that honestly what you thought I was saying? I think you're too bright a woman to have made that mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes it does, but it doesn't say when this will happen. When I hear people insist that it will happen to everybody before they die, it just seems to me that this is a tremendously naive statement to make.
Well Katzpur what exactly did your statement above ^^ mean ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
So do I, but the written word of God doesn't say when this is going to happen, now does it?
"Well my belief is that God will reveal Himself to all men because the written word of God does teach this !!!"

NOW let's see what the word of God says about it.........

And there is so many more scripture I could post, actually that is the reason of the Scripture in the Bible, God revealing Him self to the world, for the purpose of His Savation delivering the world (Jews and Gentiles) from sin through Jesus Christ, promising eternal life for All people especially to those who will believe.



Psalm 67:2
That your ways may be known on earth, your salvation among all nations.

Luke 3:6
6. And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "

Joel 2:28
[ The Day of the LORD ] "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Acts 2:17
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

I Tim. 2:3-5
3.This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4.who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5.For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

Psalm 98:2
The LORD has made his salvation known and revealed his righteousness to the nations.

Psalm 96:2
Sing to the LORD, praise his name; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Isaiah 25:9
In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation."

Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Hebrews 4:6-8
6.It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7.Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8.For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 05-31-2010 at 06:08 AM..
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,267 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Well Katzpur what exactly did your statement above ^^ mean ?
Well, there's no hidden meaning in it, that's for sure. If someone has never been exposed to the teachings of Christianity, if he has never seen a Bible, if he has never heard the name of Jesus Christ, if he has been taught from birth that there is no God or that there are many gods, or that god is impersonal and unconcerned with the lives of human beings, how could we expect him to believe otherwise?

Quote:
"Well my belief is that God will reveal Himself to all men because the written word of God does teach this !!!"
And so is mine. But as I keep pointing out, the written word of God doesn't say that this will necessarily be during mortality. There wasn't one of the scriptures you posted that said when God will reveal Himself. Many have lived and died without having had this happen. I'm trying to understand why you would deny this.

(By the way, is there some reason why I feel that you have a lot of hostility towards me? Is it just my imagination or not? Your statements all seem to have a sarcastic edge to them, and I'm trying to figure out why.)
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,040,760 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte,

I know there is not a scripture that says that those that never heard of Jesus will be cast into eternal hell.

That is because it is a calvinist doctrine based on "election" which is in scripture, it is doctrine piecing together different scriptures and taught to people ---- the same as the doctrine of "eternal hell" itself is made by piecing together scripture. It is taking physical things that are told to the physical Jews and put together with "the lake of fire" to say that people are judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" to be tormented eternally.

but what I "see" is that the lake of fire is that judgment, the second death and resurrection is FROM death -----> everybody is judged for their works

But we are told that salvation is by GRACE not works our works do not save us, but we are judged on our works



Just to let you know that I am not just believing what any universalist or ET'er or fundamentalist or preterist or calvinist or arminian or OSAS or trinitarian or sabbatarian says - I will not just agree with a human because they say so --

What I am doing is looking at all of what you are saying, and all of you are saying is a lot of diverse things and checking it with scripture and not twisting a passage to mean something different to what it say because of other scripture, but also not just putting together different passages to come to "a doctrine"

UR, ET and AN was only part of what I was looking and continue to look at and I see Gods plan is a whole (and us humans tend to only look at part of his plan and say it is the whole plan)

And the traditional one is 'believe and be saved from eternal torment'

-- he has subjected all humans to futility old creation -- and he will have mercy on all , the new creation

If we look at this scripture 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

You will tell me that it does NOT mean what it says

you will either tell me that it means he is the potential saviour or that specially means ONLY

Or Romans 11

It talks about how gentiles were originally in unbelief and then physical Israel in unbelief so that salvation comes to the gentiles and the reason God does this is so that he can put all in unbelief at some stage so that he can have mercy on all.

In verse 8 it says that God gives the spirit of slumber so that they do not "hear" and "see"

I believe as you do that we do physically see with our eyes and hear physical with our ear and then the Holy Spirit takes it to the spiritual level -- but it seems he also has only chose some to reveal things to.........

Jesus revealed things to his disciples and hid things from the multitudes..........

Let me ask you this...... IF, God is reconciling the whole world why for the reason for teaching the scripture telling us NOW is the day of salvation and too repent of our sin ? Receiving God's forgiveness in order to be saved ?

If God is saving, reconciling the world regardless of the matter of sin (cause Jesus has already taken care of that problem) and we are all in God's will according to UR teaching.
Also UR teach man does not have the will to be able to choose whether they are a murder or a saint, where they are living, working, etc., we are created to be just what God wants us to be, and it's all God's will and plan for that life. Then what is the reason or purpose for sharing, teaching, studing, learning the scripture or having the Holy Spirit in ones life, better yet even hearing about Jesus Christ?

Why tell the world God is saving, reconciling all people, because no matter what He has already created who we are, where we are, what we are doing it is His plan for that life, all will be saved sooner or later, we are what God created and planned for each one of us.

Just let the people live there life the way God planned for each one, right ?....... cause man can't change anything, they do not have will or the ability to !!!

Why does anyone need to repent or be cleansed of sin ?? God provided the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, Jesus Christ, why bother telling the world about it because Christ made the sacrifice, right ?
The sacrifice was made therefore God has reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, its a done deal whether we live or die !!

Who then cares to hear that Jesus came for our sin. God accepted His Son' sacrifice for us, why then bother the world with it ? I mean the sacrifice has been made..... it's God's plan and His will has been done!!

So, it doesn't matter if there is a judgment or sin, Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sin of the world and so everyone is saved! So we don't need to teach or tell the world, its all been taken care of. There is no purpose or big deal of telling, sharing the gospel with other's because according to UR teaching God already has saved ALL, reconciled ALL, now or later anyway, right ?
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:09 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,552,547 times
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Because God desires that we become vessels of His outpouring to others, rather than needing the fire of His wrath - of course, the ones He will use to show forth His image in the earth will be baptized with fire themselves.

You see, all men will be touched by fire - to know Him is to be burned themselves - a fact severely overlooked by most Christians. The baptism that Jesus spoke of is one of fire.

It's true, it seems a paradox that God would choose vessels, and yet have us to choose ourselves. Are not Christians told to "buy of Him gold tried in the fire"? That's a call to go deeper in Him, to accept His purging, the strippings of the old, carnal nature - but a "choice" still, and one that not many take the challenge.

But alas, I believe that His will won't be overthrown - those whom He has chosen to be sons will be given the grace to take up their call. Similary, everyone will fit into "class" they were created to be: first fruit, or latter-born; or as scripture says, "each in his own order".
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Let me ask you this...... IF, God is reconciling the whole world why for the reason for teaching the scripture telling us NOW is the day of salvation and too repent of our sin ? Receiving God's forgiveness in order to be saved ?

If God is saving, reconciling the world regardless of the matter of sin (cause Jesus has already taken care of that problem) and we are all in God's will according to UR teaching.
Also UR teach man does not have the will to be able to choose whether they are a murder or a saint, where they are living, working, etc., we are created to be just what God wants us to be, and it's all God's will and plan for that life. Then what is the reason or purpose for sharing, teaching, studing, learning the scripture or having the Holy Spirit in ones life, better yet even hearing about Jesus Christ?

Why tell the world God is saving, reconciling all people, because no matter what He has already created who we are, where we are, what we are doing it is His plan for that life, all will be saved sooner or later, we are what God created and planned for each one of us.

Just let the people live there life the way God planned for each one, right ?....... cause man can't change anything, they do not have will or the ability to !!!

Why does anyone need to repent or be cleansed of sin ?? God provided the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, Jesus Christ, why bother telling the world about it because Christ made the sacrifice, right ?
The sacrifice was made therefore God has reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, its a done deal whether we live or die !!

Who then cares to hear that Jesus came for our sin. God accepted His Son' sacrifice for us, why then bother the world with it ? I mean the sacrifice has been made..... it's God's plan and His will has been done!!

So, it doesn't matter if there is a judgment or sin, Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sin of the world and so everyone is saved! So we don't need to teach or tell the world, its all been taken care of. There is no purpose or big deal of telling, sharing the gospel with other's because according to UR teaching God already has saved ALL, reconciled ALL, now or later anyway, right ?
Latte'Chic, are you of the belief that God is waiting for everyones permission in order to save them?
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:47 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,040,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, there's no hidden meaning in it, that's for sure. If someone has never been exposed to the teachings of Christianity, if he has never seen a Bible, if he has never heard the name of Jesus Christ, if he has been taught from birth that there is no God or that there are many gods, or that god is impersonal and unconcerned with the lives of human beings, how could we expect him to believe otherwise?

[b]And so is mine. But as I keep pointing out, the written word of God doesn't say that this will necessarily be during mortality. There wasn't one of the scriptures you posted that said when God will reveal Himself. Many have lived and died without having had this happen. I'm trying to understand why you would deny this.

(By the way, is there some reason why I feel that you have a lot of hostility towards me? Is it just my imagination or not? Your statements all seem to have a sarcastic edge to them, and I'm trying to figure out why.)

No, not denying anything, no hostility..... your thinking with your own heart, not mine......
And maybe you can't figure it out because you deny God is able to speak and reveal Himself to every person born and then turn and deny the scripture that has been given.

I really don't know what else to say to you......

For whatever reasons it is not being revealed to you.....

The Scripture provided does speak that now is the day of salvation and God has revealed this through out all time. And especially God knows how to speak to the hearts and reveal Himself to all people around the world. He created each soul born and definitely knows how to touch the one He has created.....

He is the Alpha and Omega. He is everywhere and knows all things. And nothing is impossible with God !! And you doubt that !!

How do you know that there have been people who have died without being told, exposed to or about God ?

That is an awful big statement to make and having such an assurance stating it ! Hate to pop your bubble or rain on your own little parade there, but you're not God, nor do I believe He has put you in charge of knowing the salvation of other's, so how can you say or even know that some have not been told or exposed ????
No, man/woman has that capability of knowing that......

See that is what bothers me about some people who think they know all about other people's hearts and lives, more than God !!
Maybe that is why you think I have a sarcastic edge. Because I do, when people start playing God with or about other people and think they possibly know more than God, it just bugs the heck out of me !!
And especially those that think they are so special to God and He has chosen them out of all His creation and tells them in who has and hasn't received salvation through Jesus Christ.
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:51 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,040,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Latte'Chic, are you of the belief that God is waiting for everyones permission in order to save them?
Nope !!!
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