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Old 05-31-2010, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,595,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Nope !!!

The next question. Do you believe God can save us without our permission?
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:58 AM
Status: "Yea! I finally got a blog!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,031 posts, read 20,642,863 times
Reputation: 9727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Hate to pop your bubble or rain on your own little parade there, but you're not God, nor do I believe He has put you in charge of knowing the salvation of other's, so how can you say or even know that some have not been told or exposed ????
No, man/woman has that capability of knowing that......

See that is what bothers me about some people who think they know all about other people's hearts and lives, more than God !!
Maybe that is why you think I have a sarcastic edge. Because I do, when people start playing God with or about other people and think they possibly know more than God, it just bugs the heck out of me !!
I know what you mean. It bugs you when people start playing God. It bugs me when people accuse me of doing so, particularly when I said nothing at all that would imply that I see myself as being "in charge of knowing the salvation of others." It not only bugs me, it hurts me quite a bit since it is totally undeserved.

Oh, an incidentally, you still didn't answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that everything God reveals to us has to be revealed to us during our mortal lives? Don't you believe your spirit continues to exist after your body is in the ground?

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-31-2010 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:01 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 7,998,943 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I know what you mean. It bugs you when people start playing God. It bugs me when people accuse me of doing so, particularly when I said nothing at all that would imply that I see myself as being "in charge of knowing the salvation of others." It not only bugs me, it hurts me quite a bit since it is totally undeserved.

Oh, an incidentally, you still didn't answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that everything God reveals to us has to be revealed to us during our mortal lives? Don't you believe your spirit continues to exist after your body is in the ground?

Yes, I did answer your question with the scripture..... Can't help it if God is not revealing it to you ....

I am not accusing you of nothing, just confronting you about what you posted !!!

Yes, you did make the statement that other's die without being exposted to the gospel.....

Here it is to refresh your short memory ......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, there's no hidden meaning in it, that's for sure. If someone has never been exposed to the teachings of Christianity, if he has never seen a Bible, if he has never heard the name of Jesus Christ, if he has been taught from birth that there is no God or that there are many gods, or that god is impersonal and unconcerned with the lives of human beings, how could we expect him to believe otherwise?

And so is mine. But as I keep pointing out, the written word of God doesn't say that this will necessarily be during mortality. There wasn't one of the scriptures you posted that said when God will reveal Himself. Many have lived and died without having had this happen. I'm trying to understand why you would deny this.

(By the way, is there some reason why I feel that you have a lot of hostility towards me? Is it just my imagination or not? Your statements all seem to have a sarcastic edge to them, and I'm trying to figure out why.)
By the way you can not say, "never"..... because you do not know if one has never been exposed. Only God knows this and how to reach or speak to the heart of one and CAN intercede at the last second, the last breath of ones life....... !!! You can not predict that !!! Sorry !!

Then there is your statement.....

"Many have lived and died without having had this happen.".......

^^^^^^^
"I said nothing at all that would imply that I see myself as being "in charge of knowing the salvation of others." !!!

Now I would believe that is what you are inplying by your above statement in the red !!
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:26 PM
Status: "Yea! I finally got a blog!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,031 posts, read 20,642,863 times
Reputation: 9727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Yes, I did answer your question with the scripture..... Can't help it if God is not revealing it to you ....
Okay, two can play this game as well as one. You threw out a lot of scriptures and yet not one of them addressed my question.

Quote:
I am not accusing you of nothing, just confronting you about what you posted !!!
You're confronting me about something you perceived I said, and yet you still seem to have missed my point entirely.

Quote:
Yes, you did make the statement that other's die without being exposted to the gospel.....
Yes, I did. And it should be clear to anyone who knows anything at all about the world we live in that I am right. But that's not saying they won't be saved. You seem to think that everyone who has ever lived dies with an understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and will be condemned to an eternity of suffering if he does not embrace what he knows (apparently instantaneously just before death). My belief is in a far more loving God who has provided a means for all to hear the gospel, to understand the gospel and to accept it in the spirit realm after death.

Quote:
Here it is to refresh your short memory ......
My short memory? Seriously, what is your problem? We disagree on something, okay? Do you really need to use sarcasm to get your point across?

Quote:
Then there is your statement.....

"Many have lived and died without having had this happen.".......

^^^^^^^
"I said nothing at all that would imply that I see myself as being "in charge of knowing the salvation of others." !!!

Now I would believe that is what you are inplying by your above statement in the red !!
You just don't get it. I don't think you're even capable of getting it. You don't want to understand any perspective other than your own. You'd rather just stick your head in the sand and pretend that you know it all. And you talk about a judgmental attitude!

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-31-2010 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:47 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 430,475 times
Reputation: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Let me ask you this...... IF, God is reconciling the whole world why for the reason for teaching the scripture telling us NOW is the day of salvation and too repent of our sin ? Receiving God's forgiveness in order to be saved ?
Because he was talking to the people of 2000 years ago, that does not mean that it is not also directed at us as well - it does -- but salvation came with Jesus death and resurrection -- the Jewish age brought the law and sin and death -- Jesus brings the new heaven and earth with salvation (that is the GOOD NEWS) On one "level" he was talking to the Jews about their need to repent of their evil deeds and be saved from the destruction that was coming to them 70AD
Quote:
If God is saving, reconciling the world regardless of the matter of sin (cause Jesus has already taken care of that problem) and we are all in God's will according to UR teaching.
It is not UR teaching it is how some perceive what is written in scripture -- We are all accountable for what we do -- there is judgment for what we do.

You recognise that for those that had no missionaries go to them with the christian gospel -- they will be judged on their works so for them salvation is on works, but we are told that salvation is NOT on works so no one can boast {{contradiction}}

God is not reconciling all regardless of sin -- If you read the bible we are told that there are people who hold the truth in unrighteousness, and if we are In Christ we do not sin, and that God has wrath against all unrighteousness, there is judgment.




Quote:
Also UR teach man does not have the will to be able to choose whether they are a murder or a saint, where they are living, working, etc., we are created to be just what God wants us to be, and it's all God's will and plan for that life. Then what is the reason or purpose for sharing, teaching, studing, learning the scripture or having the Holy Spirit in ones life, better yet even hearing about Jesus Christ?

Why tell the world God is saving, reconciling all people, because no matter what He has already created who we are, where we are, what we are doing it is His plan for that life, all will be saved sooner or later, we are what God created and planned for each one of us.

Just let the people live there life the way God planned for each one, right ?....... cause man can't change anything, they do not have will or the ability to !!!
Umm ..... no we will all be judged for what we do

How I see it is that God has a plan new creation IN CHRIST ---- and it passes through the old creation In Adam

Quote:
Why does anyone need to repent or be cleansed of sin ?? God provided the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, Jesus Christ, why bother telling the world about it because Christ made the sacrifice, right ?
The sacrifice was made therefore God has reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, its a done deal whether we live or die !!

Who then cares to hear that Jesus came for our sin. God accepted His Son' sacrifice for us, why then bother the world with it ? I mean the sacrifice has been made..... it's God's plan and His will has been done!!

So, it doesn't matter if there is a judgment or sin, Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sin of the world and so everyone is saved! So we don't need to teach or tell the world, its all been taken care of. There is no purpose or big deal of telling, sharing the gospel with other's because according to UR teaching God already has saved ALL, reconciled ALL, now or later anyway, right ?
It seems to me that you are confused about what people are saying based on what they personally are studying and finding out for themselves, and trying to lump it all together as " UR doctrine"

It is for each of us individually to seek knowledge from God - testing the "spirits" it is the same thing that you are saying I am doing. All the people that believe in ET seem to be taking it on faith based on what they have been told (I do not see that the ET doctrine makes sense because it is built on combining different scriptures that seem to be addressing different things ) and I admit it can be confusing seeing lots of individual opinions.

I need to go out - will be back later if you want to talk more.

Last edited by Meerkat2; 05-31-2010 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:30 AM
 
Location: East Coast
29,793 posts, read 19,776,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, you have a part to play. That is what the Bible teaches. You have a choise to make: you need to choose between the narrow gate and the wide gate, because one leads to life, and the other to destruction. Again, it is not complicated.

Choose wisely, my angry universalist friend.


"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Lol where does it say in the scriptures that we have a choice,or decision to make ?.

I have never met a person yet who has found the narrow gate , i have read on here of those who think they have .

This one verse of scripture about the narrow gate is taken completely out of context in light of the fact that the scriptures tell us we were lost and that it was God Himself who left the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep .
So who found who or what ? Pretty simple to anyone with an open mind, rather than shouting down everyone who disagrees with what what the orthodox church would have us believe.

What you do not seem to understand about me Finn is that much of what i believed before i ever heard of UR i still do . So it's a cheap shot to keep having a go at me on the basis that i believe in UR.

The truth is LOVE chose us . Love chose to become flesh , love chose to go to the Cross and still to this day the incessant flow of His great Love is winning the hearts of men over

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. John 15 verse 16


An Angry Universalist.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:51 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,697,039 times
Reputation: 58197
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Lol where does it say in the scriptures that we have a choice,or decision to make ?.

I have never met a person yet who has found the narrow gate , i have read on here of those who think they have .

This one verse of scripture about the narrow gate is taken completely out of context in light of the fact that the scriptures tell us we were lost and that it was God Himself who left the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep .
So who found who or what ? Pretty simple to anyone with an open mind, rather than shouting down everyone who disagrees with what what the orthodox church would have us believe.

What you do not seem to understand about me Finn is that much of what i believed before i ever heard of UR i still do . So it's a cheap shot to keep having a go at me on the basis that i believe in UR.

The truth is LOVE chose us . Love chose to become flesh , love chose to go to the Cross and still to this day the incessant flow of His great Love is winning the hearts of men over

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. John 15 verse 16


An Angry Universalist.
LOL! You're not angry Camps, you're right! God chooses us, not the other way around.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
57,971 posts, read 31,510,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Lol where does it say in the scriptures that we have a choice,or decision to make ?.

I have never met a person yet who has found the narrow gate , i have read on here of those who think they have .
The problem is that you have failed to understand what the narrow gate means, and that you think there is absolutely nothing anyone must do. However, the Bible says otherwise. In Luke it says you must make every effort, and in Hebrews it says one must SEEK.

Jesus says "make every effort to enter though the narrow door", so you can tell me all day long how you don't need to do anything, but it is your word against the Lord's.


Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'


"Jesus said to him, "I am The Way, and the Truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:25 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,540 posts, read 11,490,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The problem is that you have failed to understand what the narrow gate means
Funny you would say that - the crucifixion of the flesh is the pattern set before us, and the fire that is repeatedly promised to burn the wood, hay and stubble. The flesh will not enter.

There's your narrow gate.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: East Coast
29,793 posts, read 19,776,111 times
Reputation: 2074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The problem is that you have failed to understand what the narrow gate means, and that you think there is absolutely nothing anyone must do. However, the Bible says otherwise. In Luke it says you must make every effort, and in Hebrews it says one must SEEK.

Jesus says "make every effort to enter though the narrow door", so you can tell me all day long how you don't need to do anything, but it is your word against the Lord's.


Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'



"Jesus said to him, "I am The Way, and the Truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)
This is obviously directed at the jews , because the scripture is emphatic that "There is none that seeketh after him"(Rom 3 verse 11) a verse from the OT and NT, also it says in both OT and NT "I was found by them that sought me not"(Rom 10 verse 20) , which obviously was referring to us gentiles .

What you really can't see is that you are taking credit for your own salvation.

Do you really think you had the insight in your fallen nature to discover the narrow gate ?
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