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Old 05-24-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,577,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte,

I am not using it to justify universalism what I am saying that what influenced her behaviour was her beliefs. Beliefs have an effect on your state of mind which in turn influence your actions.

I am judging the beliefs that she was fed by pastor which had an effect of her state of mind.........

I was brought up with the hell fire and brimstone eternal torment and due to a lot of things I tried to commit suicide when I was 18 years old, I was suffering from depression and it was due to the doctrines that I was fed as a child. Mental illness is not separate from your beliefs. Your beliefs and others condemnation can lead to depression or worsen existing depressive tendancies.
My life experience was similar to yours. The constant angry-God teaching did a lot of damage to my mind, which in turn caused me to be nearly unable to properly care for my small children due to severe, clinical depression. But the bible says that it is SATAN who has come to steal, kill, and destroy!!! And I believe it. But when our minds are bound by carnal thinking, we cannot escape from his twisting of God's words. We must RIGHTLY divide the word of TRUTH. Clearly the bible can be used to kill and also to make alive. There needs to be a balance between the killing of the flesh and the making alive in the Spirit.

Peace -
Heartsong
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,385,346 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte,

I am not using it to justify universalism what I am saying that what influenced her behaviour was her beliefs. Beliefs have an effect on your state of mind which in turn influence your actions.

I am judging the beliefs that she was fed by pastor which had an effect of her state of mind.........

I was brought up with the hell fire and brimstone eternal torment and due to a lot of things I tried to commit suicide when I was 18 years old, I was suffering from depression and it was due to the doctrines that I was fed as a child. Mental illness is not separate from your beliefs. Your beliefs and others condemnation can lead to depression or worsen existing depressive tendancies.

In my case part of my despair was that none of us choose to be born, and I could see that there were billions upon billions who had been born and had not heard the gospel and so were doomed to eternity in hell, also I had no assurance that I even I would not go to hell, and that I felt human and sinful
and there were contradictory things in the bible and, and, .... it all got too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
My life experience was
similar to yours. The constant angry-God teaching did a lot of damage to my mind, which in turn caused me to be nearly unable to properly care for my small children due to severe, clinical depression. But the bible says that it is
SATAN who has come to steal, kill, and destroy!!! And I believe it. But when our minds are bound by carnal thinking, we cannot escape from his twisting of God's words. We must RIGHTLY divide the word of TRUTH. Clearly the bible
can be used to kill and also to make alive. There needs to be a balance
between the killing of the flesh and the making alive in the Spirit.


Peace -
Heartsong

Wow! I wonder how many of us are out there! Suicide attempt here, also, as a teenager. When you BELIEVE darkness is what wins in the end (eternal torment of most of the population tells me darkness wins, yep) life becomes unbearable. Even the happiest moments are tainted!

I'm so overjoyed that I have the Internet and came across the Restitution of All Things. It has changed my life in ways that I never imagined. I honestly do not think I would still be here if not for UR.

I have made it a mission of mine to study and tell as many people as I can about it. For those that are on the edge, I want to tell them that it WILL come out right in the end (all's well that end's well). Light WILL engulf all things and NOTHING will stop it!
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:04 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,568,193 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
My life experience was similar to yours. The constant angry-God teaching did a lot of damage to my mind, which in turn caused me to be nearly unable to properly care for my small children due to severe, clinical depression. But the bible says that it is SATAN who has come to steal, kill, and destroy!!! And I believe it. But when our minds are bound by carnal thinking, we cannot escape from his twisting of God's words. We must RIGHTLY divide the word of TRUTH. Clearly the bible can be used to kill and also to make alive. There needs to be a balance between the killing of the flesh and the making alive in the Spirit.

Peace -
Heartsong
While it may be considered "twisting", if we turn to the Tree of Life, we see that by not judging the "right and wrong" we're free to accept God's hand in all things that come against us - including the mistreatment from those who call the Lord their God.

True, satan does come to steal, kill and destroy - but it was God who created the waster to destroy (Isa 54:16). By accepting God's fire in our lives, we are "drinking of the cup" Jesus drank, and are raised with Him to sit in heavenly places, above the scene where we can see God in everything.

This - I believe - is life in the spirit.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte,

I am not using it to justify universalism what I am saying that what influenced her behaviour was her beliefs. Beliefs have an effect on your state of mind which in turn influence your actions.

I am judging the beliefs that she was fed by pastor which had an effect of her state of mind.........

I was brought up with the hell fire and brimstone eternal torment and due to a lot of things I tried to commit suicide when I was 18 years old, I was suffering from depression and it was due to the doctrines that I was fed as a child. Mental illness is not separate from your beliefs. Your beliefs and others condemnation can lead to depression or worsen existing depressive tendancies.

In my case part of my despair was that none of us choose to be born, and I could see that there were billions upon billions who had been born and had not heard the gospel and so were doomed to eternity in hell, also I had no assurance that I even I would not go to hell, and that I felt human and sinful and there were contradictory things in the bible and, and, .... it all got too much.
I'm sorry about the suicide attempt.. I know where you are coming from. I attempted suicide at 15. I heard "you are going to hell" so many times that I thought I may as well just get there or hope for the age of accountability to be 16! Sad but true. Eternal Torment preaching, IMO, is what makes them get depressed and lose sanity.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,935 posts, read 8,510,601 times
Reputation: 11644
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I'm sorry about the suicide attempt.. I know where you are coming from. I attempted suicide at 15. I heard "you are going to hell" so many times that I thought I may as well just get there or hope for the age of accountability to be 16! Sad but true. Eternal Torment preaching, IMO, is what makes them get depressed and lose sanity.
I am sorry for your situation. And no offense, but I work with mentally ill people. And their theology is not what causes people to attempt suicide. It is HOPELESSNESS.

People who have faith in God are not who I deal with. Just how it is as people who have faith-regardless of their view of hell tend to not be hopless.

IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.

It seems clear to me that this presentation of Universalism is ... ( I can't say it on this board) a false and incorrect POV.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:25 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,451,598 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Eusebius.... I won't argue with you and your false accusations. Only God knows her heart and what truly happen in her mind that day.
I will not stand and judge this womans heart and mind, you can keep doing it all you want....

Later....
Keep throwing those red herrings latte'chic!

This isn't about judging anyone. It is about the diabolical doctrine of Eternal Torment causing people to do bad things. Keep to what the thread is about chic.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:27 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,451,598 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am sorry for your situation. And no offense, but I work with mentally ill people. And their theology is not what causes people to attempt suicide. It is HOPELESSNESS.

People who have faith in God are not who I deal with. Just how it is as people who have faith-regardless of their view of hell tend to not be hopless.

IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.

It seems clear to me that this presentation of Universalism is ... ( I can't say it on this board) a false and incorrect POV.
Did you know a majority of people in insand asylums believe in eternal torment?

I went to two different et churches and two from our church cracked over that doctrine and were committed. Don't tell me ET doesn't cause people to crack. HOPELESSNESS is caused by ET.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,385,346 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am sorry for your situation. And no offense, but I work with mentally ill people. And their theology is not what causes people to attempt suicide. It is HOPELESSNESS.

People who have faith in God are not who I deal with. Just how it is as people who have faith-regardless of their view of hell tend to not be hopless.

IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.

It seems clear to me that this presentation of Universalism is ... ( I can't say it on this board) a false and incorrect POV.
I thought I recognized 5150. I used to do Medical Transcription for a California hospital. 5150 is Involuntary Psych Admission in California.

Anyway, what have been the fruits of Christianity over the last 2000 years?? And why do you think people are HOPELESS? Without hope the people perish. That is an Old Testament verse. What does HOPELESSNESS do to a soul?? What are people out there missing??

LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GENTLENESS???


Maybe those people that you are dealing with ONCE believed in a loving God. Perhaps
when they were children they sang songs about how Jesus loved them. And, then, when they got older and started thinking to themselves that Jesus is going to set people on fire, what do you think happened to their brains???

Some of them turned to atheism, some of them got cold and religious, some of them went crazy.

Religion does not DO love, and religion can be a very cold and twisted place.

What do you think would happen if everyone knew how to LOVE??? IF THEY
BELIEVED!!! If they knew that a god had created them and loved them and was trying to get them into the light! What if this Creator would NEVER stop looking for them and loving them no matter what???

Are we not a "CHRISTIAN NATION?"

How many of our people are in prison and psych wards??? What is going on?

We have millions of mentally ill people out there. What do you think might be the problem? The answer is NOT to put people on MEDS!!!! Is it? Who is winning this one?

HOW MUCH MONEY DOES BIG PHARMA MAKE OFF OF US?

What do you TRULY BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS??

Last edited by herefornow; 05-24-2010 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,573,913 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am sorry for your situation. And no offense, but I work with mentally ill people. And their theology is not what causes people to attempt suicide. It is HOPELESSNESS.

People who have faith in God are not who I deal with. Just how it is as people who have faith-regardless of their view of hell tend to not be hopless.

IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.

It seems clear to me that this presentation of Universalism is ... ( I can't say it on this board) a false and incorrect POV.
Most ET believing Christians do fine (ie: are not hopeless) because they believe they themselves will be okay in the end. The more empathetic a person is - the more it will drive them nuts.

You're right about suicide - it IS a particular mindset that causes some to be suicidal and some not - but being suicidal is NOT necessarily caused by any form of mental illness.

BTW - UR is not some new theology.

People of conscience have spoken out against the absurdity of the doctrine of eternal agony for millenia - including some early church fathers.

For a strict scriptural understanding of UR a good place to study is here:
Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--glorious gospel--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ
To better understand some of the philosophical objections - here's my favorite part of a brilliant letter written in 1861:

ABSURDITY: MEN FIX EACH OTHER' S DOOM.

Your creed plainly implies, that men, both good and bad, may, and often do, determine the endless destiny of their fellow beings, by determining the length of their probation, virtually putting them into heaven, by cutting off all liability to lose it, or into hell by cutting off all opportunity to escape it. And this, also, seems to me an absurdity.

Let us suppose such a case, and see its bearing upon the subject in hand.

A young lady, respectable, but not converted, is met and ravished, under a dark night, by a villain, who destroys her life to escape detection. Sent thus hurriedly to her God in sin, she is, by the conditions of your creed, of course, lost. No cycle of eternity but shall witness her unrelieved despair. Her soul is assassinated. Out of a dark night of time, she is hurled into a darker night of eternity. The brutal hand that cut her probation short off, thereby plunged her infinitely below the sphere of possible life, shut her up in woe, bolted the door upon her, threw away the key, and left her to pine in anguish forever.


So your creed! And now, leaving her there in her woe, let us turn to look after her murderer. As "murder will out," he is detected, arrested, executed. But, while in prison, blessed with a probation which he forbade to his victim, he comes to himself, heeds his spiritual advisers, repents, exhorts the multitudes from the scaffold, and swings from it into Paradise. And there, because he had much forgiven, he loves much, and never ceases to give thanks for the prison confinement through which the mercy of God reached him.


Thus in heaven the murderer sings. But the young lady, his victim, where is she all this time? Lost! lost! He may have time for repentance, but not she. That was forbidden her, by the red hand that plunged the dagger to her heart. Mercy may come to his prison, but not to hers. That red hand of his may live to be washed, and forever twine wreaths for the immaculate brow of Him whose wrath she must forever bear.


The entire letter can be viewed here: http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/absurdities.html

Last edited by firstborn888; 05-24-2010 at 09:31 PM..
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:26 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 458,427 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am sorry for your situation. And no offense, but I work with mentally ill people. And their theology is not what causes people to attempt suicide. It is HOPELESSNESS.

People who have faith in God are not who I deal with. Just how it is as people who have faith-regardless of their view of hell tend to not be hopless.

IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.

It seems clear to me that this presentation of Universalism is ... ( I can't say it on this board) a false and incorrect POV.
Your OP I think was taking what the people were expressing out of context ....... I do not think they were saying that UR will cure all worldly ills, what they were saying is that it seems that some of those that believe in ET feel that because God will punish his enemies in the future forever, and because they believe they are doing his will that it gives them the right in this life to threaten and abuse and murder those that they feel are going against Gods will and are heretics. Example Calvin, Dark ages This was justified based on the scriptures of wrath and torment.

What they were saying basically was -: can you name any that believed in UR that did those same sort of things?

I actually dislike labels and generalisations, but I can see that we need them to communicate what we believe but they can cloud what people perceive and the communication gets lost between everyone trying to express what they individually believe and the information being generalised under "universalism" -- why I believe in UR is based on what I see in scripture and what I perceive of the nature of God.

The whole of christianity is divided in all of its doctrines and part of that system especially Calvinism is believe what we tell you, and be elect, if you do not believe what we tell you because we are the elect and have the Holy Spirit, you will burn in eternal hell forever -- Can you really think about that -- this is talking about billions and billions of people created finite and then suffering infinitely, and most people who have ever lived have never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus as they never even heard of him ..... Even those that do believe in ET have differing doctrines about how to be saved, if one can fall away, when judgment happens, We are told that there is judgment on works and that we need to keep the commandments, however the church says if you do not believe, the works do not actually matter at all because it is unbelief that sends you to eternal hell .......... (the Christian can behave exactly like and unbeliever and because the believer "believes" they are righteous, and because the unbeliever does not believe they are "wicked" It is very contradictory if you take half of the picture, it leads to all of the confusion of preterism vs futurism, calvinism vs arrminianism, OSAS, sabbath keeping.


And also in the case of Andrea Yates the reason why she murdered her children was BECAUSE she had been told or given the idea that she was not a good mother, was not bringing them up right and that because of that they would be bound for eternal hell so in her mind to save her children from eternal torment she needed to kill them now...........
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