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Old 05-25-2010, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,656 posts, read 1,716,001 times
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I think many Puritans (Calvinists?) commited suicide in the past (partly) due the doctrine of eternal torment?

this is partly related to the subject of Calvinism:

True Hope for Netherlands Reform Church Members and All Calvin Doctrine Victims (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/calvin/truehope.htm - broken link)

Quote:
IMO this whole thread is filled with false reasons why orthodox christian theology is bad but this new idea (UT) will cure all of your ills.
Universalism is no new idea, it was very widespread among the early churchfathers, whereas eternal torment became dogma about 550 AD

http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/20...ly-church.html

The claim that universalism derived from Plato seems to be totally wrong, quite to the contrary, it might have been Plato who introduced eternal torment, though only for a few, to Greek thinking. I have read contradicting sources.

Last edited by svenM; 05-25-2010 at 04:40 AM..
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,964 posts, read 8,547,957 times
Reputation: 11789
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I thought I recognized 5150. I used to do Medical Transcription for a California hospital. 5150 is Involuntary Psych Admission in California.
Busted.

Section 5150 is a section of California's Welfare and Institutions Code (specifically, the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act or "LPS") which allows a qualified officer or clinician to involuntarily confine a person deemed to have a mental disorder that makes them a danger to his or her self, and/or others[1] and/or gravely disabled. A qualified officer, which includes any California peace officer, as well as any specifically designated county clinician, can request the confinement after signing a written declaration. When used as a term, 5150 can informally refer to the person being confined or to the declaration itself.

The 5150 hold may be written out on Form MH 302, Application for 72 Hour Detention for Evaluation and Treatment.
**********
I am not a Peace Officer or a clinician, but my job involes working with 5150 types on occasion as well as with law enforcement and mental health professionals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
What do you TRULY BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS??
I believe the truth will be known when we meet the Lord. I really don't care if I am wrong on this issue, but I just don't see universalism supported by scripture.

And I have read enough cites (and in the last week or two to settle the issue in my mind.
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:51 PM
 
3,587 posts, read 465,427 times
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Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post

I believe the truth will be known when we meet the Lord. I really don't care if I am wrong on this issue, but I just don't see universalism supported by scripture.

And I have read enough cites (and in the last week or two to settle the issue in my mind.


I believe the bolded phrase is a little telling, to me it seems you are using your head to assess the truth -- Jesus is the truth and truth is to be sought for HIS/its own sake, with your whole heart .

And I do also believe that it is only when we meet the Lord that we will know all truth .
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,964 posts, read 8,547,957 times
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Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I believe the bolded phrase is a little telling, to me it seems you are using your head to assess the truth -- Jesus is the truth and truth is to be sought for HIS/its own sake, with your whole heart .
No offense but...

I disagree. Mostly because you have never met me. So how do you know whether I disagree with UR because I am using my head or by conviction of the Holy Spirit?

What I have seen over the last week or two is people redefining words, such as "fire" and "believe" to make UR fit what is written in the Bible.

Then I see people blame wars, suicide and physical child abuse on the concept of hell. Knowing what I know about human behavior makes me roll my eyes at the idea. I mean, have you noticed that polytheistic/pagan cultures engage in said practices? And they don't believe in ET.

So that's my beef with the UR theology.
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,391,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
No offense but...

I disagree. Mostly because you have never met me. So how do you know whether I disagree with UR because I am using my head or by conviction of the Holy Spirit?

What I have seen over the last week or two is people redefining words, such as "fire" and "believe" to make UR fit what is written in the Bible.

Then I see people blame wars, suicide and physical child abuse on the concept of hell. Knowing what I know about human behavior makes me roll my eyes at the idea. I mean, have you noticed that polytheistic/pagan cultures engage in said practices? And they don't believe in ET.

So that's my beef with the UR theology.
Mr5150,

We are NOT redefining fire. We just happen to be thinking SPIRITUALLY instead of CARNALLY.

These phrases are ALL from Bible Verses: MINISTERS of fire, Baptizing with FIRE, Salted with FIRE, your works will be revealed by FIRE, your TONGUE is a FIRE, sea of glass mingled with FIRE.

What do you think fire speaks of in the Bible? What does it mean?

Last edited by herefornow; 05-25-2010 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,581,174 times
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Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Then I see people blame wars, suicide and physical child abuse on the concept of hell.
All I can say is that when people believe absolutely absurd insanities it certainly doesn't help in any given situation.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:02 PM
 
3,587 posts, read 465,427 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
No offense but...

I disagree. Mostly because you have never met me. So how do you know whether I disagree with UR because I am using my head or by conviction of the Holy Spirit?

What I have seen over the last week or two is people redefining words, such as "fire" and "believe" to make UR fit what is written in the Bible.

Then I see people blame wars, suicide and physical child abuse on the concept of hell. Knowing what I know about human behavior makes me roll my eyes at the idea. I mean, have you noticed that polytheistic/pagan cultures engage in said practices? And they don't believe in ET.

So that's my beef with the UR theology.
All I am saying is that you saying "I do not really care if I am right on this", says something, I am not meaning it about a particular doctrine, it is not about UR or ET or preterism or sabbath or all of the doctrines that are derived from the bible. We all judge people by what they say, I would say the same thing if you said I do not care if I am right on salvation is by works or faith without works is dead, or we must keep the sabbath to be saved.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,964 posts, read 8,547,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Mr5150,

We are NOT redefining fire. We just happen to be thinking SPIRITUALLY instead of CARNALLY.
Spiritually = people who agree with us

Carnally = people who disagree with us

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Old 05-25-2010, 05:23 PM
 
3,587 posts, read 465,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Mr5150,

We are NOT redefining fire. We just happen to be thinking SPIRITUALLY instead of CARNALLY.

These phrase are ALL from Bible Verses: MINISTERS of fire, Baptizing with FIRE, Salted with FIRE, your works will be revealed by FIRE, your TONGUE is a FIRE, sea of glass mingled with FIRE.

What do you think fire speaks of in the Bible? What does it mean?
Herefornow,

What I see is that we are all trying to see spiritually (maybe it is to different degrees) --- with all of the opposing doctrines of all of those trying to see spiritually and all of us believing that what we perceive is spiritual and the ones that oppose us must then be only perceiving things carnally, we can get side tracked into the situation where the focus gets put onto each accusing the other of being carnal and not one of the spiritual ones ......

I know that I do not perceive all truth .......but what I do see is a tendancy to put doctrines into boxes that are disjointed from each other and it detracts from the purpose of God creating humans as humans and then destroying the old creation and raising humans to a new creation. What I see is the doctrine of ET is taking some scriptures about aionian judgment and making it in a spiritual torture chamber of those who are not 'christian' and that some 'christians' do not feel any compassion for those that they think are going to that place because in their mind they believe that those people have chosen to go there. And others have their own justifications of why it is justice. Some do not actually think about the implications, they just believe what they have been told about it. As if anyone would choose to be tormented forever and ever and ever and ever..........
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
 
3,587 posts, read 465,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Spiritually = people who agree with us

Carnally = people who disagree with us

Yes --- and what I see is we all have a tendency to do this.
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