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Old 05-25-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Spiritually = people who agree with us

Carnally = people who disagree with us

That is not a good enough reply. What does fire do in the Bible? What is it's purpose?
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Herefornow,

What I see is that we are all trying to see spiritually (maybe it is to different degrees) --- with all of the opposing doctrines of all of those trying to see spiritually and all of us believing that what we perceive is spiritual and the ones that oppose us must then be only perceiving things carnally, we can get side tracked into the situation where the focus gets put onto each accusing the other of being carnal and not one of the spiritual ones ......

I know that I do not perceive all truth .......but what I do see is a tendancy to put doctrines into boxes that are disjointed from each other and it detracts from the purpose of God creating humans as humans and then destroying the old creation and raising humans to a new creation. What I see is the doctrine of ET is taking some scriptures about aionian judgment and making it in a spiritual torture chamber of those who are not 'christian' and that some 'christians' do not feel any compassion for those that they think are going to that place because in their mind they believe that those people have chosen to go there. And others have their own justifications of why it is justice. Some do not actually think about the implications, they just believe what they have been told about it. As if anyone would choose to be tormented forever and ever and ever and ever..........
Yep. Sigh.

I have read some of the old church fathers take on why God is justified in setting people on fire forever. I didn't know until recently that all of our preachers out there today stole this thinking from the Dark Ages!! It is NOT in our Bibles! It came from Augustine's head! Mind-boggling stuff. Absolutely mind-boggling.


I'm truly surprised at how little people LISTEN to the Holy Spirit. They are too busy LISTENING to other men.

We were ALL given the SPIRIT to lead us into truth. How many are hearing what the Spirit is saying?

It is rather terrifying stepping out from under all these men, but it is much better to listen to the Holy Spirit than be under the deception.

I know......
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,905 posts, read 8,479,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
That is not a good enough reply. What does fire do in the Bible? What is it's purpose?
Matt 13 says:



24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "



36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth


47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yep. Sigh.

I have read some of the old church fathers take on why God is justified in setting people on fire forever. I didn't know until recently that all of our preachers out there today stole this thinking from the Dark Ages!! It is NOT in our Bibles! It came from Augustine's head! Mind-boggling stuff. Absolutely mind-boggling.


I'm truly surprised at how little people LISTEN to the Holy Spirit. They are too busy LISTENING to other men.

We were ALL given the SPIRIT to lead us into truth. How many are hearing what the Spirit is saying?

It is rather terrifying stepping out from under all these men, but it is much better to listen to the Holy Spirit than be under the deception.

I know......
So because someone doesn't follow your beliefs they aren't listening to the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will never contradict scripture. Don't forget that.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
So because someone doesn't follow your beliefs they aren't listening to the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will never contradict scripture. Don't forget that.
Oh, I won't forget that, CantWait2Leave!!!

What does "Tongue of fire" mean to you? What are "Ministers of fire." I could go on and on, but my husband wants the dang computer back.

I will work on this thread tomorrow, though, if you want.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Matt 13 says:



24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "



36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth


47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I will be happy to get back to you tomorrow, Mr5150. I have to give my husband some computer time.

There are VERY good explanations for these verses, I promise! Remember to think SPIRITUALLY. There are SPIRITUAL meanings behind these passages.

Don't just pick and choose what you want to take literally and what you want to take figuratively. It needs to make PERFECT sense.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:38 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,175 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Matt 13 says:



24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "



36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth


47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You seem to think this is talking about christians and non christians

I think that the parable of the sower can be understood to mean that the field is the world and we are sown with a carnal nature and the breath of life from God ---- our carnal nature is what we get of the devil it is that which is sown by the enemy, this parable speaks against evil and the seeds of the devil - I do not believe it is talking about believers and unbelievers that believers actions and sins are just covered and unbelievers being damned for unbelief ......... it talks about a separation of good and evil .
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Wow! The URs are throwing every false accusation in the books at Christians.

Oh, well, the Bible says Christians will suffer for his name.

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,905 posts, read 8,479,538 times
Reputation: 11600
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
You seem to think this is talking about christians and non christians

I think that the parable of the sower can be understood to mean that the field is the world and we are sown with a carnal nature and the breath of life from God ---- our carnal nature is what we get of the devil it is that which is sown by the enemy, this parable speaks against evil and the seeds of the devil - I do not believe it is talking about believers and unbelievers that believers actions and sins are just covered and unbelievers being damned for unbelief ......... it talks about a separation of good and evil .
I suppose you think "the sons of the kingdom" isn't refering to people. Now that takes some major spiritualization.
*************
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.



And the wicked from the righteous??? Sorry but we're talking individuals. Good and evil don't gnash teeth. People gnash teeth.

49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
*********
I am beyond convinced the UR is a false doctrine based on selective misinterpretations of the certain sections of the Bible.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:54 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
No one who REALLY believes in eternal torment could (in good conscience) ever have children in the first place. In fact - in the ET view EVERY birth is an eternal tragedy as the vast majority will go into eternal agony ("few there be who find it") and the "few" will have loved ones there as well.

My conclusion is that most who say they believe in ET don't really, in their hearts of hearts, believe it at all.
Absolutely FB!! I could not agree more and I believe you're right.....in their heart of hearts, they don't believe it at all, like I didn't.
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