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Old 05-23-2010, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,912 posts, read 8,488,256 times
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I find these claims of Universalism a bit hard to swallow.

Discuss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Universalist View Post
I think the influence of universalism can never be worse than that of eternal tormentism, the terrorists from 9/11 believed in ET alike - they hadn't done this if they were universalist, the Holocaust was basically a product of Catholic antisemitism, the Nazis wouldn't have killed the Jews if they haven't been Catholics but universalists. The doctrine of eternal tormentism showed its vicious face in the middle ages, Queen Mary I think and John Calvin are only tow examples for the devilish influence of that doctrine

[


Quote:
Originally Posted by Universalist View Post
The belief in a god who would set people on fire for eternity does strange
things to parents. If you BELIEVE that the child you love is going to be
eternally tormented by God, sad things are going to happen.

I think it was Bright Hope For Tomorrow who said that she thinks most Christians don't truly believe, DEEP DOWN, that God will do any such thing. I
would have to say, if they did, we would have more kids end up being part of
those abuses and traumas. I'm talking about those with vivid imaginations and a die-hard BELIEF in hell; like Andrea Yates, the mother who drowned her kids.
It is one thing to disagree on the nature of hell. Quite another to make such wild claims. Child abuse and war are atributes of evil people.

Last edited by Mr5150; 05-23-2010 at 08:39 AM..
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:41 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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I don't think it's a far-fetched idea at all. Universalism focuses on the love of God and each other, and that is what is wrong with the world.....no love of God or each other.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:45 PM
 
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Individuals of all sides of all doctrines can go to far in their assertions -- those that believe in universal reconciliation are trying to understand that God has subjected the whole of creation in futility not of its own will but because of Gods will, so that HE can have mercy on all of HIS creation. And the way that he is doing that is through Christ. The old creation is made into the new creation through Christ.

Those 2 examples saying that it was those people who were doing evil deeds in the name of God it was done because their view was that God will burn his enemies and that they were right in burning their own enemies, but we are told to forgive our enemies BECAUSE God forgives his enemies and that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

It is not UR or any belief system that saves us it is God through Christ.

The belief in UR is just our trying to understand who God is based on the scriptures and our understandings that were are given to us.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Wow, yes they seem very loving!
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I don't think it's a far-fetched idea at all. Universalism focuses on the love of God and each other, and that is what is wrong with the world.....no love of God or each other.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:26 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,418 posts, read 29,549,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I don't think it's a far-fetched idea at all. Universalism focuses on the love of God and each other, and that is what is wrong with the world.....no love of God or each other.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
You have GOT to be kidding me.
I do not agree that the belief in the Restoration of All Things will bring about world peace. People's hearts are too stuborn and greedy. And I understand Communism hasn't brought about peace and love. I have studied Stalin and Marx. Not the most pleasant of fellows.

BUT......!!!!!!

Maybe it was a backlash against RELIGION and it's wars that brought Communism into play?? Maybe??

Do you know why the Catholics felt justified burning people at the stake and starting wars??

And, when Andrea Yates drowned her children, what was going through her mind?


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Old 05-24-2010, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Germany
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it is a matter of fact that believers in eternal torment commited the most atrocious crimes in human history while I know of no example where Christian universalists persecuted or murdered other people.

the Europeans exterminated the native americans, they deemed themselves "christians" and regarded the indians as subhumans, damned to hell anyway, so did Queen Mary if I remember right, Augustine and Calvin seem to had similar mindsets.

The crusaders, believers in eternal torment, slaugtered Muslims and Jews

I could continue with this...

To me it appears quite logic, people who believe in a cruel and sadistic (how else could you eternal torment call?) divinity (thought they call it love) become cruel and sadistic themself (though they think they are good and superior, "christian" europeans vs. native americans e.g.).

BTW

when you quoted me, you could have quoted me by my nickname and not labelled as "universalist", I stand to my opinion and defend it, there is no need to make me "anonymous"
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
it is a matter of fact that believers in eternal torment commited the most atrocious crimes in human history while I know of no example where Christian universalists persecuted or murdered other people.

the Europeans exterminated the native americans, they deemed themselves "christians" and regarded the indians as subhumans, damned to hell anyway, so did Queen Mary if I remember right, Augustine and Calvin seem to had similar mindsets.

The crusaders, believers in eternal torment, slaugtered Muslims and Jews

I could continue with this...

To me it appears quite logic, people who believe in a cruel and sadistic (how else could you eternal torment call?) divinity (thought they call it love) become cruel and sadistic themself (though they think they are good and superior, "christian"europeans vs. native americans e.g.).

BTW

when you quoted me, you could have quoted me by my nickname and not
labelled as "universalist", I stand to my opinion and defend it, there is no need to make me "anonymous"
Tried to rep you; I have to spread it around, apparently.

Anyway, all very good points, Sven. (I'm the other "anonymous" poster.)
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:20 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,708,573 times
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I want to add two things

I think sexual abuse has nothing to do with the religious doctrines one adheres to - I do not claim that among universalists such things do not happen, but at least the doctrine of eternal torment does not prevent Catholic priests (of course not all Catholics do so) to sexually abuse children.

But I think this doctrine actually causes psychical abuse by instilling fear e.g., this link is also worth to read (though not universalist)

All the Dead Innocent Children

PS:

I do not claim that atheists do not also commit terrible atrocities, you do not have to believe in eternal torment to commit terrible crimes, but I am convinced that the doctrine of eternal torment had a terrible influence both in the past and still and that Christian universalism (NOT liberal pluralism or Unitarian universalism!) could never have such influences.

The idea that a universalist persecutes or slaugtheres another person due to doctrinal issues for example is ridicilous; adherents of eternal torments have done so, e.g. Queen Mary, Calvin, even the translators of the KJV or those for whom they worked persecuted other Christians as far as I know, so did Luther...

Last edited by svenM; 05-24-2010 at 03:33 AM..
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