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Old 05-23-2010, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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As many of you are aware, many of the translations we use today are derived from Greek Manuscripts. I'm going to show you how it helps you to understand scripture better. Take for example the following verse from the King James Bible:

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Notice that bolded part. Many anti-universalists will quote this verse and say it refutes the understanding that God will eventually save everyone. They will say that this verse shows that some will never find the straight gate to Life.

Now to understand that it would mean that the verse is to be understood in a FUTURE Tense - especially with respect to the word "Find" in the verse. But with Greek Parsing of the text we can find the true tense here. So let's look at some Greek Parsing of this same verse:

Mat 7:14 οτι G3754 CONJ στενη G4728 A-NSF η G3588 T-NSF πυλη G4439 N-NSF και G2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενη G2346 V-RPP-NSF η G3588 T-NSF οδος G3598 N-NSF η G3588 T-NSF απαγουσα G520 V-PAP-NSF εις G1519 PREP την G3588 T-ASF ζωην G2222 N-ASF και G2532 CONJ ολιγοι G3641 A-NPM εισιν G1510 V-PAI-3P οι G3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντες G2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτην G846 P-ASF

Now I have bolded in Red the Greek Parsing for Find. You will notice the V-PAP-NPM designation. This tells us that it is a verb and the first P tells us this is the PRESENT Tense. See how that changes EVERYTHING about how that verse should be understood? So the verse here in Matthew is not saying that Few will EVER find it. It is saying that AT THAT TIME (Present tense) there were Few that were finding it. Now let's look at how another Translation translates that verse:

Young Literal Translation:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice that in this translation the Present Tense is more recognizable.

I hope this helps others. The Greek Parsing text I used was downloaded as a module for E-Sword which is free software that you can download and use (they take donations).
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,581 posts, read 9,012,005 times
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The verb Find is a present tense verb, to the phrase few "there be that find it" is also a present tense phrase. It may be an older style of speech and thus less readily recognizable, but it is still grammatically correct and in present tense. The verb Be is also in the present tense and further confirms the tense of the phrase.

In order for this phrase to be construed in a future tense it would require the addition of an adverb, such as will, would, might, may, never, etc, etc, etc.... to modify the tense to future.
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
The verb Find is a present tense verb, to the phrase few "there be that find it" is also a present tense phrase. It may be an older style of speech and thus less readily recognizable, but it is still grammatically correct and in present tense. The verb Be is also in the present tense and further confirms the tense of the phrase.

In order for this phrase to be construed in a future tense it would require the addition of an adverb, such as will, would, might, may, never, etc, etc, etc.... to modify the tense to future.
Thanks for the additional info John.
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 950,546 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
As many of you are aware, many of the translations we use today are derived from Greek Manuscripts. I'm going to show you how it helps you to understand scripture better. Take for example the following verse from the King James Bible:

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Notice that bolded part. Many anti-universalists will quote this verse and say it refutes the understanding that God will eventually save everyone. They will say that this verse shows that some will never find the straight gate to Life.

Now to understand that it would mean that the verse is to be understood in a FUTURE Tense - especially with respect to the word "Find" in the verse. But with Greek Parsing of the text we can find the true tense here. So let's look at some Greek Parsing of this same verse:

Mat 7:14 οτι G3754 CONJ στενη G4728 A-NSF η G3588 T-NSF πυλη G4439 N-NSF και G2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενη G2346 V-RPP-NSF η G3588 T-NSF οδος G3598 N-NSF η G3588 T-NSF απαγουσα G520 V-PAP-NSF εις G1519 PREP την G3588 T-ASF ζωην G2222 N-ASF και G2532 CONJ ολιγοι G3641 A-NPM εισιν G1510 V-PAI-3P οι G3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντες G2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτην G846 P-ASF

Now I have bolded in Red the Greek Parsing for Find. You will notice the V-PAP-NPM designation. This tells us that it is a verb and the first P tells us this is the PRESENT Tense. See how that changes EVERYTHING about how that verse should be understood? So the verse here in Matthew is not saying that Few will EVER find it. It is saying that AT THAT TIME (Present tense) there were Few that were finding it. Now let's look at how another Translation translates that verse:

Young Literal Translation:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice that in this translation the Present Tense is more recognizable.

I hope this helps others. The Greek Parsing text I used was downloaded as a module for E-Sword which is free software that you can download and use (they take donations).
That's a present active participle, not a verb. The temporal context is determined in this case by the copula, εισιν, which makes no reference to the termination of the verbal action, which could conceivably extend forward in time infinitely. Think of the Greek of Exod 3:14: εγω ειμι ο ων, "I am he who is." The syntax is identical, and the construction certainly doesn't support the notion that "he who is" will stop "being" in the future.
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
That's a present active participle, not a verb. The temporal context is determined in this case by the copula, εισιν, which makes no reference to the termination of the verbal action, which could conceivably extend forward in time infinitely. Think of the Greek of Exod 3:14: εγω ειμι ο ων, "I am he who is." The syntax is identical, and the construction certainly doesn't support the notion that "he who is" will stop "being" in the future.
More good info. Thanks Daniel.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:38 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,368 times
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Good find! There is another excellent parsing program (a somewhat lighter version than Robinson's Codes) that others might also find useful. It has the KJV translation, Strongs Code and a TVM Code of the verbs (Tense, Voice and Mood). Here are a couple of good web sites to download modules for the e-sword programs:

DCOX: E-Sword Module Website

theChan website of Christian Bible Resources

And a site dedicated to e-sword users is also a good place to go. If I recall you first set up a web account (screen name and password) and then you can download all their programs :

http://www.e-sword-users.org/users/

I also agree that having a good word for word literal translation (such as the YLT or a Greek/English interlinear) is vital when trying to figure out if the translators of the NASV, NIV or even the KJV got it right to begin with. A lot of the times they do not. Consequently, scripture concepts and doctrines that have been taken for granted over the last 400 years (KJV) may infact be wrong. What a surprise! .

Here is an example. On another thread (http://www.city-data.com/forum/14290201-post1.html) our good friend Sciota, when discussing being born of the Spirit, stated that the word "man" could only refer to someone living on the earth with a body, and not someone or thing without a body in the after life. But when going back to review the original Greek text, two different Greek words are used for the term we translate "man". Here, take a look at the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus in John, Chapter 3:

Joh 3:3 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662] andG2532 saidG2036 [G5627] unto himG846, VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] againG509, he cannotG1410 [G5736] G3756 seeG1492 [G5629] the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

Joh 3:4 NicodemusG3530 saithG3004 [G5719] untoG4314 himG846, HowG4459 canG1410 [G5736] a manG444 be bornG1080 [G5683] when he isG5607 [G5752] oldG1088? canG3361 G1410 [G5736] he enterG1525 [G5629] the second timeG1208 intoG1519 hisG846 mother'sG3384 wombG2836, andG2532 be bornG1080 [G5683]?

Joh 3:5 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662], VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] ofG1537 waterG5204 andG2532 of the SpiritG4151, he cannotG3756 G1410 [G5736] enterG1525 [G5629] intoG1519 the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

The first use of the term "man" (in Joh 3:3), is spoken by Jesus, and is taken from the Greek word τὶς. It's meaning is anyone or anything. But it does not necessarily mean a man, per se, having a body. Here is the Greek word used by Jesus:

G5100
τὶς
tìs; neut. ti, gen. tinós; enclitic indef. pron. One, someone, a certain one.
(I) Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify particularly.

The second occurrence of the term "man" (verse 4), this time by Nicodemus, uses the Greek word ἄνθρωπος. It's basic meaning however is "man", just how we would use or think of the term "man" in everyday language:

G444
ἄνθρωπος
ánthrōpos; gen. anthrṓpou, masc., fem. noun. Man, a generic name in distinction from gods and the animals.

But remember, this Greek word ἄνθρωπος IS NOT the word used by Jesus in verse 3.

The third occurrence of "man" (verse 5), again used by Jesus, repeats the Greek word τὶς, and not ἄνθρωπος as Nicodemus had used. This tells us that the word Jesus used (anyone or anything) has a much broader scope than the word Nicodemus used, but you would never know this when reading the KJV or some of the newer translations. Most translations use a single English word (man) for the two different Greek words. It would also seem, that you do not have to be a man, per se, with a body, to be born of the Spirit. You could very well be anything or anyone. John the Baptist had said that God could raise up ROCKS to be Children of Abraham, if God wanted to do so:

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have--Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham,

What John the Baptist told us fits in perfectly with what Jesus said of being born of the Spirit. Anything, or anyone, can be born of the Spirit, not just a man having a body, as we so often think.

Anyway, a simple bible lesson for today . Hope you enjoyed it!
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 950,546 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
The verb Find is a present tense verb, to the phrase few "there be that find it" is also a present tense phrase. It may be an older style of speech and thus less readily recognizable, but it is still grammatically correct and in present tense. The verb Be is also in the present tense and further confirms the tense of the phrase.

In order for this phrase to be construed in a future tense it would require the addition of an adverb, such as will, would, might, may, never, etc, etc, etc.... to modify the tense to future.
Those aren't adverbs in English, they're just auxiliary verbs. They also don't exist as separate lexical items in Greek (except for "never"). The phrase doesn't at all preclude a future understanding of the construct. It just refers to the present with no judgment one way or the other on the verbal action in the future.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:55 PM
 
5,497 posts, read 4,406,623 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
Those aren't adverbs in English, they're just auxiliary verbs. They also don't exist as separate lexical items in Greek (except for "never"). The phrase doesn't at all preclude a future understanding of the construct. It just refers to the present with no judgment one way or the other on the verbal action in the future.
Yep! And that is why a little greek can be dangerous. Form does not always equate to function.
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,632,775 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Good find! There is another excellent parsing program (a somewhat lighter version than Robinson's Codes) that others might also find useful. It has the KJV translation, Strongs Code and a TVM Code of the verbs (Tense, Voice and Mood). Here are a couple of good web sites to download modules for the e-sword programs:

DCOX: E-Sword Module Website

theChan website of Christian Bible Resources

And a site dedicated to e-sword users is also a good place to go. If I recall you first set up a web account (screen name and password) and then you can download all their programs :

http://www.e-sword-users.org/users/

I also agree that having a good word for word literal translation (such as the YLT or a Greek/English interlinear) is vital when trying to figure out if the translators of the NASV, NIV or even the KJV got it right to begin with. A lot of the times they do not. Consequently, scripture concepts and doctrines that have been taken for granted over the last 400 years (KJV) may infact be wrong. What a surprise! .

Here is an example. On another thread (http://www.city-data.com/forum/14290201-post1.html) our good friend Sciota, when discussing being born of the Spirit, stated that the word "man" could only refer to someone living on the earth with a body, and not someone or thing without a body in the after life. But when going back to review the original Greek text, two different Greek words are used for the term we translate "man". Here, take a look at the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus in John, Chapter 3:

Joh 3:3 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662] andG2532 saidG2036 [G5627] unto himG846, VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] againG509, he cannotG1410 [G5736] G3756 seeG1492 [G5629] the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

Joh 3:4 NicodemusG3530 saithG3004 [G5719] untoG4314 himG846, HowG4459 canG1410 [G5736] a manG444 be bornG1080 [G5683] when he isG5607 [G5752] oldG1088? canG3361 G1410 [G5736] he enterG1525 [G5629] the second timeG1208 intoG1519 hisG846 mother'sG3384 wombG2836, andG2532 be bornG1080 [G5683]?

Joh 3:5 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662], VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] ofG1537 waterG5204 andG2532 of the SpiritG4151, he cannotG3756 G1410 [G5736] enterG1525 [G5629] intoG1519 the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

The first use of the term "man" (in Joh 3:3), is spoken by Jesus, and is taken from the Greek word τὶς. It's meaning is anyone or anything. But it does not necessarily mean a man, per se, having a body. Here is the Greek word used by Jesus:

G5100
τὶς
tìs; neut. ti, gen. tinós; enclitic indef. pron. One, someone, a certain one.
(I) Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify particularly.

The second occurrence of the term "man" (verse 4), this time by Nicodemus, uses the Greek word ἄνθρωπος. It's basic meaning however is "man", just how we would use or think of the term "man" in everyday language:

G444
ἄνθρωπος
ánthrōpos; gen. anthrṓpou, masc., fem. noun. Man, a generic name in distinction from gods and the animals.

But remember, this Greek word ἄνθρωπος IS NOT the word used by Jesus in verse 3.

The third occurrence of "man" (verse 5), again used by Jesus, repeats the Greek word τὶς, and not ἄνθρωπος as Nicodemus had used. This tells us that the word Jesus used (anyone or anything) has a much broader scope than the word Nicodemus used, but you would never know this when reading the KJV or some of the newer translations. Most translations use a single English word (man) for the two different Greek words. It would also seem, that you do not have to be a man, per se, with a body, to be born of the Spirit. You could very well be anything or anyone. John the Baptist had said that God could raise up ROCKS to be Children of Abraham, if God wanted to do so:

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have--Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham,

What John the Baptist told us fits in perfectly with what Jesus said of being born of the Spirit. Anything, or anyone, can be born of the Spirit, not just a man having a body, as we so often think.

Anyway, a simple bible lesson for today . Hope you enjoyed it!
Hey AlabamaStorm, thanks for posting that. This is good stuff. This thread is turning out to be very educational even for me.
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 950,546 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Good find! There is another excellent parsing program (a somewhat lighter version than Robinson's Codes) that others might also find useful. It has the KJV translation, Strongs Code and a TVM Code of the verbs (Tense, Voice and Mood).
If you need software to help with parsing, the best you're going to find for free online is okus. It has the New Testament, the Septuagint, and a wide variety of classical texts. The parsing is accurate, as well, unlike the example given in the OP. If there's more than one possibility, it will also give you all the options. It's supplemented with Liddell and Scott's intermediate Greek lexicon, which is the standard. Don't waste your time with Strong's. All it does is list how words are translated in the KJV. It's hardly a helpful tool for learning how the words should be understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here is an example. On another thread (http://www.city-data.com/forum/14290201-post1.html) our good friend Sciota, when discussing being born of the Spirit, stated that the word "man" could only refer to someone living on the earth with a body, and not someone or thing without a body in the after life. But when going back to review the original Greek text, two different Greek words are used for the term we translate "man". Here, take a look at the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus in John, Chapter 3:

Joh 3:3 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662] andG2532 saidG2036 [G5627] unto himG846, VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] againG509, he cannotG1410 [G5736] G3756 seeG1492 [G5629] the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

Joh 3:4 NicodemusG3530 saithG3004 [G5719] untoG4314 himG846, HowG4459 canG1410 [G5736] a manG444 be bornG1080 [G5683] when he isG5607 [G5752] oldG1088? canG3361 G1410 [G5736] he enterG1525 [G5629] the second timeG1208 intoG1519 hisG846 mother'sG3384 wombG2836, andG2532 be bornG1080 [G5683]?

Joh 3:5 JesusG2424 answeredG611 [G5662], VerilyG281, verilyG281, I sayG3004 [G5719] unto theeG4671, ExceptG3362 a manG5100 be bornG1080 [G5686] ofG1537 waterG5204 andG2532 of the SpiritG4151, he cannotG3756 G1410 [G5736] enterG1525 [G5629] intoG1519 the kingdomG932 of GodG2316.

The first use of the term "man" (in Joh 3:3), is spoken by Jesus, and is taken from the Greek word τὶς. It's meaning is anyone or anything. But it does not necessarily mean a man, per se, having a body.
τις does not just mean any person or thing every time it is used. That would be like saying the word λογος means "word," "saying," "statement," "speech," "oracle," "subject," "principle," "account," "analogy," "intent," "matter," "mouth," "reason," and a dozen other things each and every time it is used. That's not how Greek or any other language works. It means "someone," OR it means "something." Once inserted into a semantic context its semantic range is determined by that context. In this instance it is being used as an indefinite pronoun which very clearly refers to a human being. The fact that it is parallel to ανθρωπος makes that even more clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here is the Greek word used by Jesus:

G5100
τὶς
tìs; neut. ti, gen. tinós; enclitic indef. pron. One, someone, a certain one.
(I) Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify particularly.

The second occurrence of the term "man" (verse 4), this time by Nicodemus, uses the Greek word ἄνθρωπος. It's basic meaning however is "man", just how we would use or think of the term "man" in everyday language:

G444
ἄνθρωπος
ánthrōpos; gen. anthrṓpou, masc., fem. noun. Man, a generic name in distinction from gods and the animals.

But remember, this Greek word ἄνθρωπος IS NOT the word used by Jesus in verse 3.

The third occurrence of "man" (verse 5), again used by Jesus, repeats the Greek word τὶς, and not ἄνθρωπος as Nicodemus had used. This tells us that the word Jesus used (anyone or anything) has a much broader scope than the word Nicodemus used,
Incorrect. The indefinite pronoun here is very clearly referring to a human being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
but you would never know this when reading the KJV or some of the newer translations. Most translations use a single English word (man) for the two different Greek words. It would also seem, that you do not have to be a man, per se, with a body, to be born of the Spirit. You could very well be anything or anyone. John the Baptist had said that God could raise up ROCKS to be Children of Abraham, if God wanted to do so:

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have--Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham,

What John the Baptist told us fits in perfectly with what Jesus said of being born of the Spirit. Anything, or anyone, can be born of the Spirit, not just a man having a body, as we so often think.

Anyway, a simple bible lesson for today . Hope you enjoyed it!
I think you need to learn Greek before posting these kinds of expositions.
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