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As almost everyone who frequents this forum knows, I am a Universalist Christian. The quick definition is I believe in the eventual reconciliation of God's creation-in it's entirety-to Himself, made possible by the atoning work of Jesus.
My question is this: in Luke 23:34, Jesus, while dying on the cross, cried out to God, saying "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
Do you think God answered Jesus' prayer? If so, doesn't that mean that God forgave them (the people there at that time) without them having to ask for it? If not, what is your reasoning, or what scriptural proof do you have that God did not do so?
This question really intrigues me. Obviously, I believe that God did, but I realize many disagree with my beliefs-I just ask that everyone stay respectful please. No belittling each other's beliefs, and that includes me.
Last edited by jeffncandace; 06-15-2007 at 12:28 PM..
Yes, I think He forgave these particular people for this particular sin. I don't think that applies to salvation in general, though...although I'm pretty sure you do, Jeff!
would say that He probably did listen to His please, however, I also think that was for the people of that time that denied Jesus and being the Messiah. I think at the point (I might be wrong though) that, that was for right then and the people that were directly (not all of mankind/sinners, but the ones that actually judged Him and put Him to death) responsible for His death.
Oooh you know I want to follow you on this...but I have to say that Jesus was talking about the people there at the time...not people to come. Sorry. But please explain where you are going with it, and maybe I can change my mind.
I believe God forgave those people, just as Jesus had asked. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus so, it makes sense to me that His plea was granted. Not only that but Jesus was God in man form so that's reassuring as well. I do believe it was for those people at that particular time though and that may be where some people would argue the fact. God knew this was going to happen before it happened, it was His will for it to happen, so Jesus HAD to be condemned by the people in order for the atonement to come. So yes, I think that God forgave those people at that time. I also may speculate that many of those people may have come to serve the Lord, hopefully after that took place. Here's another question that may have the people speculating..... by God forgiving them, does that mean that they received salvation? The Holy Spirit? or just that they were forgiven for those particular things but they would still need to accept Him as their Savior in order to go to heaven, or did He, by forgiving them as Jesus asked, give them that salvation? Interesting, huh? I guess we'll all really know when that time comes. I'm definitely going to ask my hubby, who has the Theology degree. Thanks for bringing this question, sparked my interest!
I see that some have asserted that Jesus' words were directed at a specific audience - the people of that time and place. That's an interesting take, and I've used the same reasoning myself.
What else in the Bible might be audience specific? How do we know the entire Bible isn't directed at certain people? My point is this; some questions can be answered if we conclude that God speaks to different people in different ways.
Wow, did I screw up. I didn't mean that He was asking for everyone for all time. My point was that He asked God to forgive them there at that time. If God answered that prayer, that means he forgave them there at that time without them having to ask for forgiveness. We are traditionally taught that one must ASK God for forgiveness in order to recieve it. (Although He tells us to forgive whether asked for it or not, but I digress ) God is not a respector of persons, yet this means (according to traditional Christianity) that God did indeed forgive those people without them asking for it, but doesn't do that for us.
Yes, I think He forgave these particular people for this particular sin. I don't think that applies to salvation in general, though...although I'm pretty sure you do, Jeff!
Wouldn't that make Him a respector of persons, Kay?
Imo. , and I have a couple on this question. He may have asked God to forgive them, because his death and everything leading up to it was predicted in the old testament. So maybe these individuals were predestined to do what they did, and didn't know why they were doing this (maybe against their will) so Jesus made the plea"for they know not what they do"
On the other hand Jesus may have been refering to the lack of knowledge among some of the people about the messiah.
Wow, did I screw up. I didn't mean that He was asking for everyone for all time. My point was that He asked God to forgive them there at that time. If God answered that prayer, that means he forgave them there at that time without them having to ask for forgiveness. We are traditionally taught that one must ASK God for forgiveness in order to recieve it. (Although He tells us to forgive whether asked for it or not, but I digress ) God is not a respector of persons, yet this means (according to traditional Christianity) that God did indeed forgive those people without them asking for it, but doesn't do that for us.
Does that make more sense?
Ok that makes sense, I'll get on board with you now.
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But please explain where you are going with it, and maybe I can change my mind.
