U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 05-23-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,520 posts, read 31,917,431 times
Reputation: 9413

Advertisements

I wrote the below post on another thread about universalism, and didn't get any responses, so I thought I'd post it here. It is about Luke 13:23-28 and it clearly proves that not everyone will be saved.

Read the words of Jesus:


Luke 13:23-28 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer,
'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.



Jesus specifically says that you must "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door" because " for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." So, straight out of mouth of Jesus Christ himself, NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO ENTER.

He says " 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' and it continues ""There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."

It is plain to see that lines up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus in the distance, but he had been cast out to the other side.

And in Matthew he says again "there are few who find it." Not many, but FEW. And definitely not ALL. These are the words of Jesus Christ.

You MUST enter through the narrow gate, "and there are few who find it".:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is
the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go
in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way
which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:14


Again he repeats "“For many are called, but few are chosen.” .

Note the words "IF YOU ENTER" below. Either you enter or you don't.
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and
will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9

The Bible makes clear that salvation is available to ALL, but Jesus says that "many will not find the door", and "many will not be able to enter", and to those who choose to reject Him, he says 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!"

The Bible does not teach that all will be saved, and this is why universalism is a huge deception.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-23-2010, 12:55 PM
 
768 posts, read 934,255 times
Reputation: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I wrote the below post on another thread about universalism, and didn't get any responses, so I thought I'd post it here. It is about Luke 13:23-28 and it clearly proves that not everyone will be saved.

Read the words of Jesus:


Luke 13:23-28 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.



Jesus specifically says that you must "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door" because " for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." So, straight out of mouth of Jesus Christ himself, NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO ENTER.

He says " 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' and it continues ""There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."

It is plain to see that lines up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus in the distance, but he had been cast out to the other side.

And in Matthew he says again "there are few who find it." Not many, but FEW. And definitely not ALL. These are the words of Jesus Christ.

You MUST enter through the narrow gate, "and there are few who find it".:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is
the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go
in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way
which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:14


Again he repeats "“For many are called, but few are chosen.” .

Note the words "IF YOU ENTER" below. Either you enter or you don't.
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and
will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9

The Bible makes clear that salvation is available to ALL, but Jesus says that "many will not find the door", and "many will not be able to enter", and to those who choose to reject Him, he says 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!"

The Bible does not teach that all will be saved, and this is why universalism is a huge deception.
First of all, can we be certain that these are in fact the actual words of Jesus seeing as how Matthew, Luke and John which you quote from were written a good forty to seventy years after Jesus was crucified?

Second, Jesus was referring the Kingdom of God which he believed was going to be ushered in on earth during his lifetime. This is why he told his disciples to give up everything, even their families, and follow him. It is also why in the crucifixion narrative in Mark (the earliest and most historically accurate account) Jesus cries out in agony and dereliction. He did not see the Kingdom ushered in as he had expected and felt forsaken.

Even in the writings of the apostle Paul, we see a turning away from the immediacy of the Kingdom in his earlier writings to a Kingdom in the afterlife.
For both Jesus and Paul, the Kingdom of God that they expected in their lifetimes never came as it never will. So what did they come up with? A Kingdom in the afterlife.

But if believing that you are one of the few “elect” makes you feel special, chosen, holier than thou, go right ahead and keep believing it. Some of us are not that emotionally weak as to need to cling to such a fairy tale.

Last edited by Consent Withdrawn; 05-23-2010 at 01:42 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,250 posts, read 20,001,723 times
Reputation: 2109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Consent Withdrawn View Post

But if believing that you are one of the few “elect” makes you feel special, chosen, holier than thou, go right ahead and keep believing it. Some of us are not that emotionally weak as to need to cling to such a fairy tale.
The real sad thing is though they would say it's by believing they are chosen,but the truth is they really think they are because they think they have all the correct teachings of the scriptures nailed.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:08 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,565,611 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I wrote the below post on another thread about universalism, and didn't get any responses, so I thought I'd post it here. It is about Luke 13:23-28 and it clearly proves that not everyone will be saved.
1. The question in Luke 13:23 was "are there [present tense] few that be saved
2. Jesus responded that many will [future tense] will strive to enter the narrow gate but fail.
3. Jesus also said in Matthew 7, many there be [present tense] who go [present] through the wide gate.
4. and few there be [presenet tense] who go [present tense] through the narrow gate.

The scriptures do not say that the many who strive and fail will never be saved and never enter the narrow gate.


Here is an example of some of the many who strived yet failed to enter the narrow gate. They failed because they sought it not by faith, but by their own works
  • Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.
But Romans 11 shows that their stumbling need not be permanent.
  • Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
  • Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
  • Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes
A person can be NOT ABLE to do something and later be made able by God.
  • Mark 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me
The words "could not" mean "not strong enough". They are the same exact words as in Luke 13 "not able to". Yet after God gave the diciples the Holy Spirit, they were able to cast out any and all devils and did so. What is impossible for men based on their own strength, is possible with God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:
1. Jesus did not say that few will ever be saved.
2. Jesus did say that many will be saved. Countless many. Without number. As the sand of the sea.

So I believe that countless many, not few will be saved.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,250 posts, read 20,001,723 times
Reputation: 2109
Finn one simple question,yes or no, did you find your own way to the narrow gate ?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
I guess the Word of God is applicable only if twisted to sooth your ears...because you question God's holy Word here...by stating...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consent Withdrawn View Post
First of all, can we be certain that these are in fact the actual words of Jesus seeing as how Matthew, Luke and John which you quote from were written a good forty to seventy years after Jesus was crucified.

...but then you "contort"...and say this...


[quote=Consent Withdrawn]Second, Jesus was referring the Kingdom of God which he believed was going to be ushered in on earth during his lifetime.[/quote]...you have got to be kidding...seriously...oh boy...dear LORD!


...anyway (I have to get AWAY from ^^ THAT, and QUICK!!!, THEN!...as if that wasn't enough!...you go on to say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consent Withdrawn
This is why he told his disciples to give up everything, even their families, and follow him. It is also why in the crucifixion narrative in Mark (the earliest and most historically accurate account) Jesus cries out in agony and dereliction. He did not see the Kingdom ushered in as he had expected and felt forsaken.

Even in the writings of the apostle Paul, we see a turning away from the immediacy of the Kingdom in his earlier writings to a Kingdom in the afterlife.
For both Jesus and Paul, the Kingdom of God that they expected in their lifetimes never came as it never will. So what did they come up with? A Kingdom in the afterlife.

But if believing that you are one of the few “elect” makes you feel special, chosen, holier than thou, go right ahead and keep believing it. Some of us are not that emotionally weak as to need to cling to such a fairy tale.
O.K!!!...and just what "fairy tale" are YOU the main character in...?whew!....way on out there.......!!!...!!!...WHATEVER!!!

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-23-2010 at 01:25 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I wrote the below post on another thread about universalism, and didn't get any responses, so I thought I'd post it here. It is about Luke 13:23-28 and it clearly proves that not everyone will be saved.

Read the words of Jesus:


Luke 13:23-28 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer,
'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.



Jesus specifically says that you must "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door" because " for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." So, straight out of mouth of Jesus Christ himself, NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO ENTER.

He says " 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' and it continues ""There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."

It is plain to see that lines up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus in the distance, but he had been cast out to the other side.

And in Matthew he says again "there are few who find it." Not many, but FEW. And definitely not ALL. These are the words of Jesus Christ.

You MUST enter through the narrow gate, "and there are few who find it".:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is
the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go
in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way
which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:14


Again he repeats "“For many are called, but few are chosen.” .

Note the words "IF YOU ENTER" below. Either you enter or you don't.
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and
will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9

The Bible makes clear that salvation is available to ALL, but Jesus says that "many will not find the door", and "many will not be able to enter", and to those who choose to reject Him, he says 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!"

The Bible does not teach that all will be saved, and this is why universalism is a huge deception.
Here is the real exegesis:
Luke 13
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’


8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”


The discussion here is about an abomination that occurred when Pilate mixed sacrificial blood with that of the Galileans. Now he says if THEY don't repent (of the Mosaic Law turned Judaism) then they will perish (which they did in 70AD). The parable is a description of that very concept that if they didn't turn away from their man-made law and love God and each other the Romans would do more than mix a little blood.

10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”


15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”


17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.


Now here Jesus attacks the man-made laws of the synagogue rulers. They wouldn't extend their hand to help a lady in need but would water their donkey on the sabbath! How much do you suppose these rulers of the synagogue were weeping and gnashing their teeth at the humiliation?

18 Then Jesus asked, “What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches.”

20 Again he asked, “What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”


Kingdom of God = Mustard seed planted by man in his garden and became a useful tree for birds to perch in.
Kingdom of God = Yeast/Leaven that causes the dough to rise throughout the dough.

We can conclude that the Kingdom of God causes good and useful things.


"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod." Mark 8:15

(Also Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.")

So throughout the chapter the focus is on the difference between what Jesus was teaching and what the Pharisees and Sadducees/rulers of the synagogue were teaching.

22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’


26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’


27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’


28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”


See the correlation here between the first portion of the chapter and this? The weeping and gnashing of teeth in jealousy as they are left out and humiliated! Jesus is still teaching about the difference between the rulers of the synagogues ways and God's ways. The Pharisee and Sadducee are the people who are not recognized in their soiled garments. Ordinary people will be included but the rulers of the synagogue will not. Who is the owner of the house? God. Who will destroy that house in 70AD? God.

This is all talking about the times it was written. Outside of the 1st century you have no context.


We see that more clearly by looking at the last portion of the chapter:


31At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”

32He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

34“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”


See... it is the leaven of the rulers of the synagogue (house) that are the focus in Jesus' rebuke. They refused to see Christ for what he was and he knew he would soon be killed. Their house (synagogue) will be left desolate... and it surely was in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Context means not only including the surrounding verses but also considering time and location of the writer and what it is he is writing about.


Your premise is flawed.

Last edited by katjonjj; 05-23-2010 at 01:40 PM.. Reason: colored MY words for clarity.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,520 posts, read 31,917,431 times
Reputation: 9413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Consent Withdrawn View Post
First of all, can we be certain that these are in fact the actual words of Jesus seeing as how Matthew, Luke and John which you quote from were written a good forty to seventy years after Jesus was crucified.
If you doubt even that, then there is not much to talk about.

Quote:
But if believing that you are one of the few “elect” makes you feel special, chosen, holier than thou, go right ahead and keep believing it. Some of us are not that emotionally weak as to need to cling to such a fairy tale.
Did I say something about myself? No, so why the personal attack?

See ya.....
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,520 posts, read 31,917,431 times
Reputation: 9413
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The real sad thing is though they would say it's by believing they are chosen,but the truth is they really think they are because they think they have all the correct teachings of the scriptures nailed.
More jabs and judgement.

What is this? A universalist annual "bash a Christian day"?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,520 posts, read 31,917,431 times
Reputation: 9413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
The scriptures do not say that the many who strive and fail will never be saved and never enter the narrow gate.

.
It says "Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."

So I don't know how you woudl conclude that they are allowed in at some later time. If that was the case, then how come the Bible doesn't say that? Don't you think that would be an important enough message to include in the Bible?

Your quotes from Romans do not talk about people getting second chances after death.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top