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Old 05-27-2010, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet didn't you say in your OP: So it is your understanding and really no biblical proof was presented. If you like you can post one point at a time and I will tell you MY UNDERSTANDING of the passage.

Even the most staunch and devoted trinitarian scholars will tell you that the trinity is NOT taught in the bible but is IMPLIED. I say it is INFERRED... but then that is my opinion just as it is my understanding that Jesus is not God come to earth in flesh.

We'll start with Jesus.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,711,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
We'll start with Jesus.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The problem lies in the fact that most Christians read the bible devotionally and as a result, it leads them to the mistaken idea that the bible is in PERFECT harmony from Genesis to Revelation, read like a straight horizontal thread with ALL writers agreeing or complimenting one another. This is FAR from the truth when read critically. What you actually find is that, when read vertically (each book treated separately and placed against each other), you realize that different writers catered to different schools of thought and no place is this more evident than in the New Testament, notably the Gospels.

The early Ebionite (Jerusalem) Christians did NOT hold Jesus up to be God or ANY god for that matter. That was just absolutely unthinkable to ANY Jew of that era. They believed he was simply a mere man who was ANOINTED by God to do his work on earth and in THAT sense, he was probably LATER held to be a son (anointed-chosen) of God - end of story! What happened over the years, however, is that that idea began to change until it evolved into the idea that he was not just the son of God, but rather, God himself, a concept that became popularized in the Gentile world.

Scholars hold that the Gospel according to Mark is the oldest Gospel. Note carefully that in this Gospel, at the very first verse, the oldest manuscripts of Mark that verse does NOT contain the words "the son of God." That was a later addition. Why do you think so? The book contains no story of the Virgin Birth and has no need to because that concept was unheard of and probably blasphemous to those the writer was writing to. What appears to be the case, however, is that the writer believed that Jesus BECAME the "son of god" at his baptism, believing this is when God anointed him to do his bidding or as some say, to "start his earthly ministry."

But what if he was the son of God BEFORE that? The Gospels of Matthew and Luke satisfies this question by presenting the Virgin Birth. Jesus is presented as being physically BORN as the son of God just like the other myths of other gods floating around at the time. He is not merely anointed to be a representative of God on earth. He is an actual offspring of God!

But what if he was a son of God before that...maybe even God himself, just passing through earth to redeem this mess we call life as [allegedly] planned out before the world began? Enter the Gospel of John to address and support this idea as found in verse 1 of that book. No Virgin birth story needed here even though it might have been circulating that he was born of a Virgin BUT pre-existed for eternity before his earthly birth. This became the official stance of Imperial (Roman) Christianity and has come down to us.

But what does the book of Acts say and what idea of Jesus' status does it present? During Peter's sermon he says this:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Note there that it is only AFTER Jesus is crucified and risen is he given an elevated status upon completing his assigned duty - NOT before at ANY time.

In conclusion, this is what I gather. Jesus started out like any other religious holyman who developed a following and over time he went from man to chosen of God to God himself in the minds of his followers as time went on. Some of the books of New Testament bears this out.
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Old 05-27-2010, 09:21 PM
 
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Good Evening, folks!


Two optioins:


1- We all either keep it nice, or...

2- Thread gets closed.


~June



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Old 05-27-2010, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
We'll start with Jesus.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The first verses of John he is paralleling The creation of the Old Earth to the NEW Earth which came through Christ.

The message is the word. The word is not a person. My words are words. God's words are words (albeit more powerful than mine). Many strung together for a purpose in communication is called a message. The word of God is synonymous with the message of God.

However what John 1 tells us is that the word or message of God was with God from the beginning and the word was God.

That is fairly straight forward. Now then you go to verse 14. The word became flesh and some people envision the essence of God becoming a baby.. a suckling child ... a teenager ... then they automatically go up to the first verse and make the message or the word into Jesus. Then of course Jesus equals God... but if that was meant then the 14th verse would have been first.... wouldn't it?

The message became flesh. I understand that to mean that the flesh is fully occupied with the message. Since a word or message is not an entity but a tool of communication then changing the statement "the word became flesh" to "God manifested as a human" is a real stretch.

It is true that God is the word and the word came upon flesh... we see it recorded in the gospels that the word of God came upon him.

Now I could go on and on about why we don't need to interpret it to be saying that God inhabited a man on earth.

But it is my own understanding from my readings of the bible and I don't expect all people to agree with me.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The first verses of John he is paralleling The creation of the Old Earth to the NEW Earth which came through Christ.

The message is the word. The word is not a person. My words are words. God's words are words (albeit more powerful than mine). Many strung together for a purpose in communication is called a message. The word of God is synonymous with the message of God.

However what John 1 tells us is that the word or message of God was with God from the beginning and the word was God.

That is fairly straight forward. Now then you go to verse 14. The word became flesh and some people envision the essence of God becoming a baby.. a suckling child ... a teenager ... then they automatically go up to the first verse and make the message or the word into Jesus. Then of course Jesus equals God... but if that was meant then the 14th verse would have been first.... wouldn't it?

The message became flesh. I understand that to mean that the flesh is fully occupied with the message. Since a word or message is not an entity but a tool of communication then changing the statement "the word became flesh"
to "God manifested as a human" is a real stretch.

It is true that God is the word and the word came upon flesh... we see it recorded in the gospels that the word of God came upon him.

Now I could go on and on about why we don't need to interpret it to be saying that God inhabited a man on earth.

But it is my own understanding from my readings of the bible and I don't
expect all people to agree with me.
I think I understand what you are saying. I have mentioned a couple of times that it looks like Jesus had a will of his own, separate from his father's. Not MY will, but THINE, right?

So, in that way he COULD have done something other than what he was supposed to do, and therefore, he truly WAS tempted. I could never understand the temptation, otherwise. If he WAS God then he already owned everything.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I think I understand what you are saying. I have mentioned a couple of times that it looks like Jesus had a will of his own, separate from his father's. Not MY will, but THINE, right?

So, in that way he COULD have done something other than what he was supposed to do, and therefore, he truly WAS tempted. I could never understand the temptation, otherwise. If he WAS God then he already owned everything.
Yes. I have a hard time with the doctrine that teaches that God left Jesus on the cross. As if Jesus was possessed by God and had no will of his own when he clearly did have his own will... however, he chose to only do GOD's will.

If Jesus was God it would be Jesus' will. If we read the Bible with it in mind that it is really God then it seems as if God is pretending to be human..

Other sects teach that God was born.. I just have to chuckle at the thought of God as a baby... drooling God..

And still others say that Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man and that in some places (such as when he is tempted) it was his Man personality that was tempted (because obviously God can't be tempted to do wrong) but it was the God personality that healed people.

The thing I wonder is: If Jesus is God then wouldn't you think the devil is smarter than to try and tempt God?? Seems like the devil considered Jesus a mere man. IMO
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: southern california
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neither, was the son of god.
we are children of god too but we gota work at it some. jesus was a natural.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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I just came across this article: Bahai Faith Network Blog Archive “And the Word became flesh”.

An excerpt:
"If you look further down the chapter he continues in verse 17: “grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”. So John describes the Word as “grace and truth”; then he states this “came through Jesus Christ”. So the Word “dwelt” in and “came through” Jesus Christ. See? The Word, which is God, dwelt in and was revealed through Jesus Christ"

And there are a few other things that are interesting to note in the replies.

Sometimes people are so used to seeing that scripture and putting Jesus in as the word that it doesn't occur to them that the word is not a person.
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Old 05-27-2010, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
We cannot be like God. We cannot be perfect or a spirit. So if we are told that we can be like Jesus then Jesus cannot be God.
"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"
Your turn...
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Old 05-27-2010, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"
Your turn...
Ok.. got me there!

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.



Your turn.
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