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Old 05-27-2010, 11:56 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 455,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
When was logic and sense a part of faith?

Moderator cut: edit
To me having faith is about faithfulness, we are also given a brain to use ...... faith does not mean ignoring the brain that we were given.
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:13 AM
 
20,305 posts, read 15,661,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
The problem lies in the fact that most Christians read the bible devotionally and as a result, it leads them to the mistaken idea that the bible is in PERFECT harmony from Genesis to Revelation, read like a straight horizontal thread with ALL writers agreeing or complimenting one another. This is FAR from the truth when read critically. What you actually find is that, when read vertically (each book treated separately and placed against each other), you realize that different writers catered to different schools of thought and no place is this more evident than in the New Testament, notably the Gospels.

The early Ebionite (Jerusalem) Christians did NOT hold Jesus up to be God or ANY god for that matter. That was just absolutely unthinkable to ANY Jew of that era. They believed he was simply a mere man who was ANOINTED by God to do his work on earth and in THAT sense, he was probably LATER held to be a son (anointed-chosen) of God - end of story! What happened over the years, however, is that that idea began to change until it evolved into the idea that he was not just the son of God, but rather, God himself, a concept that became popularized in the Gentile world.

Scholars hold that the Gospel according to Mark is the oldest Gospel. Note carefully that in this Gospel, at the very first verse, the oldest manuscripts of Mark that verse does NOT contain the words "the son of God." That was a later addition. Why do you think so? The book contains no story of the Virgin Birth and has no need to because that concept was unheard of and probably blasphemous to those the writer was writing to. What appears to be the case, however, is that the writer believed that Jesus BECAME the "son of god" at his baptism, believing this is when God anointed him to do his bidding or as some say, to "start his earthly ministry."

But what if he was the son of God BEFORE that? The Gospels of Matthew and Luke satisfies this question by presenting the Virgin Birth. Jesus is presented as being physically BORN as the son of God just like the other myths of other gods floating around at the time. He is not merely anointed to be a representative of God on earth. He is an actual offspring of God!

But what if he was a son of God before that...maybe even God himself, just passing through earth to redeem this mess we call life as [allegedly] planned out before the world began? Enter the Gospel of John to address and support this idea as found in verse 1 of that book. No Virgin birth story needed here even though it might have been circulating that he was born of a Virgin BUT pre-existed for eternity before his earthly birth. This became the official stance of Imperial (Roman) Christianity and has come down to us.

But what does the book of Acts say and what idea of Jesus' status does it present? During Peter's sermon he says this:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Note there that it is only AFTER Jesus is crucified and risen is he given an elevated status upon completing his assigned duty - NOT before at ANY time.

In conclusion, this is what I gather. Jesus started out like any other religious holyman who developed a following and over time he went from man to chosen of God to God himself in the minds of his followers as time went on. Some of the books of New Testament bears this out.
To the contrary!!! See link.

Christ is Yahweh (http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/isaiah/yhwhchrist.html - broken link)
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Thank you Mike. They don't reject you, rather they reject Jesus.
You're welcome twin!
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Old 05-28-2010, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,570,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok.. got me there!

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.



Your turn.
Heb. 2:10 "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering".

1 Jn. 3:2 "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".



Now - of course it IS interesting that God had to be made perfect, no?

Of course - trinitarian apologists are omniscient and have all the answers. They will lead us into all truth.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:10 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,570,351 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

As I stated elsewhere on this thread, if a person professes to believe in Christ, but doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is God, then that person does not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and therefore has an improper object for his faith. That person therefore is not saved.
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God". 1 John 4:15
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Old 05-28-2010, 04:14 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,439,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As you have said this in the past, it was predictable that you would repeat yourself. Hypostatic union and Kenosis are theological technical terms. Every area of life, every profession, every technical field, has and uses technical terms. Theology is no different. One word of vocabulary saves a thousand words of explanation.




No He wasn't. He was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity.

Christ's divine nature IS His deity. It was His humanity that was resurrected. Not His deity.

Link:

The "I AM" Sayings Prove Jesus to be Divine





Since the moment of His incarnation, Jesus Christ is the God-Man forevermore.

It was the humanity of Christ that died on the Cross. Not His deity.

The three members of the Godhead are distinquished one from another.

Since Jesus has submitted Himself to the will of the Father, the first Person of the trinity, He refers to the first Person of the trinity as God, even though He Himself is also God. And Christ refers to Him also as Father for the same reason. And no, Jesus is not the Father. It's a matter of position. Not inferiority.

Link:

God the Father : What does the Bible say?

As I stated elsewhere on this thread, if a person professes to believe in Christ, but doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is God, then that person does not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and therefore has an improper object for his faith. That person therefore is not saved.

There is no excuse for not understanding the deity of Christ. Those who say they believe in Christ but deny His deity do not hold Biblical beliefs, but rather, cultish beliefs.

Final comment.
1Co 8:5-7 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, (6) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (7) But not in all is there this knowledge. ...."

I rest my case. The Father is God. The Lord is Jesus. This knowledge is not in you. But someday it will be.
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Old 05-28-2010, 04:41 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,716,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary!!! See link.

Christ is Yahweh (http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/isaiah/yhwhchrist.html - broken link)
Mike, some of those parallels are real stretches. Certainly some of them prove my point in that, some New Testament writers (long after the fact) sought to link Jesus to God in regards to making them the same person. We find the very same thing in the Old Testament where the LORD (YWH/Yahweh/Jehovah) rises from a mere son of the Most High God to becoming the Most High himself as per the evolution of Jewish theology which elevated him to such lofty heights.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Heb. 2:10 "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering".

1 Jn. 3:2 "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".



Now - of course it IS interesting that God had to be made perfect, no?

Of course - trinitarian apologists are omniscient and have all the answers. They will lead us into all truth.
I concede.. You win.
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Old 05-28-2010, 10:01 AM
 
20,305 posts, read 15,661,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
as i stated elsewhere on this thread, if a person professes to believe in christ, but doesn't believe that jesus christ is god, then that person does not believe in the jesus christ of the bible and therefore has an improper object for his faith. That person therefore is not saved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
"if anyone acknowledges that jesus is the son of god, god lives in him and he in god". 1 john 4:15
As God, Jesus possesses the royal title 'The Son of God.' And His royal family is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of John focuses on Jesus as the Son of God.

As man, Jesus possesses the royal title 'The Son of Man.' And His royal family is the Davidic dynasty. The Gospel of Luke presents Jesus as the Son of MAN.

As the God-Man, Jesus possesses the royal title 'King of kings and the bright morning star.' (Revelation 22:16). And His royal family is in the process of being formed. It is the Church-royal family of God. (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6). The Gospel of Matthew presents Christ as King.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-28-2010 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 05-28-2010, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As God, Jesus possesses the royal title 'The Son of God.' And His royal family is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of John focuses on Jesus as the Son of God.

As man, Jesus possesses the royal title 'The Son of Man.' And His royal family is the Davidic dynasty. The Gospel of Luke presents Jesus as the Son of MAN.

As the God-Man, Jesus possesses the royal title 'King of kings and the bright morning star.' (Revelation 22:16). And His royal family is in the process of being formed. It is the Church-royal family of God. (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6). The Gospel of Matthew presents Christ as King.
The term 'God-Man' is just creepy... I don't know about others but separating things yet claiming they are one is just well... creepy IMO.
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