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Old 05-28-2010, 11:39 AM
 
12,796 posts, read 6,782,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Mike, some of those parallels are real stretches. Certainly some of them prove my point in that, some New Testament writers (long after the fact) sought to link Jesus to God in regards to making them the same person. We find the very same thing in the Old Testament where the LORD (YWH/Yahweh/Jehovah) rises from a mere son of the Most High God to becoming the Most High himself as per the evolution of Jewish theology which elevated him to such lofty heights.
There is no stretch, though those who set themselves against the truth and who would seek to upset the faith of true believers would have it be so. You have eyes but you do not wish to see. The many prophecies of the Bible of which many have been fulfilled, mean nothing to you. You simplly try to explain them away. The fact that Israel exists as a nation today in unbelief means nothing to you. Again, you simply try to explain it away. The fact that the church came into existence less than two months after Christ was resurrected when there were plenty of witnesses to His resurrection and ascension, means nothing to you. Legends are not born in such a short time. Had Christ not been resurrected, the Apostles would not have been willing to go to their deaths as martyrs. They had been cowards prior to His resurrection. But that means nothing to you.

Those who will not open their eyes to the truth, while God extends to them the opportunity to do so, will find out after it is too late, that they rejected their Savior and will therefore make their eternal home in the lake of fire. It is a decision that each person must make
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Old 05-28-2010, 11:54 AM
 
12,796 posts, read 6,782,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Heb. 2:10 "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering".

1 Jn. 3:2 "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".



Now - of course it IS interesting that God had to be made perfect, no?

Of course - trinitarian apologists are omniscient and have all the answers. They will lead us into all truth.
You can lead a horse to water. You cannot make it drink!!!

Hebrews 2:10 is in reference to the humanity of Christ. Not His deity. As a member of the human race, Jesus had to grow and mature just as did any other person.

The word 'perfect' is Teleiosai and means 'to mature'. Jesus in His humanity had to learn and grow in knowledge just as did any other person. In fact, Jesus had become spiritually mature by the age of 12.

Jesus had to not only be born sinnless, but to live His life free from any personal sin in order to qualify to go to the Cross. And His sufferings were for that purpose.
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Old 05-28-2010, 11:55 AM
 
4,809 posts, read 3,912,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no stretch, though those who set themselves against the truth and who would seek to upset the faith of true believers would have it be so. You have eyes but you do not wish to see. The many prophecies of the Bible of which many have been fulfilled, mean nothing to you. You simplly try to explain them away. The fact that Israel exists as a nation today in unbelief means nothing to you. Again, you simply try to explain it away. The fact that the church came into existence less than two months after Christ was resurrected when there were plenty of witnesses to His resurrection and ascension, means nothing to you. Legends are not born in such a short time. Had Christ not been resurrected, the Apostles would not have been willing to go to their deaths as martyrs. They had been cowards prior to His resurrection. But that means nothing to you.

Those who will not open their eyes to the truth, while God extends to them the opportunity to do so, will find out after it is too late, that they rejected their Savior and will therefore make their eternal home in the lake of fire. It is a decision that each person must make

Outside of [political] Israel existing today, please point me to another biblical prophesy that has been fulfilled that was not predicted in the bible and fulfilled in another area of the same bible? Thanks.

Mike, I am not trying to deny anything just for the sake of denying. I am not some child who needs to pretend and throw tantrums just because "I don't wanna." Get some hard, cold, tangible facts that does NOT require suspending my natural sense of logic and reason and we can talk, ok?
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:36 PM
 
12,796 posts, read 6,782,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Outside of [political] Israel existing today, please point me to another biblical prophesy that has been fulfilled that was not predicted in the bible and fulfilled in another area of the same bible? Thanks.
I think you meant to say ''that was predicted''. That research is readily available. I will point you to the book of Isaiah and its prophecies concerning Tyre. And to the defeat of Babylon in 539 B.C. by the Medes and the Persians (Isa 13:17-19). Isa 13:1-16 concerns the destruction of Babylon at the second coming of Christ. It is verses 17-19 that have already been fulfilled. The first and second dispersals of Israel and its first restoration prior to its second dispersal. All the Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus Christ for example. If you are truly interested then do the research.

Quote:
Mike, I am not trying to deny anything just for the sake of denying. I am not some child who needs to pretend and throw tantrums just because "I don't wanna." Get some hard, cold, tangible facts that does NOT require suspending my natural sense of logic and reason and we can talk, ok?
The prophecies are cold hard facts. And no suspension of logic or reason is required. As for talking, you will not listen to me. What you choose to believe is your affair. You seem eager enough to do research for the sake of denying the reality of God. Put that same eagerness to work in doing honest research regarding the prophecies of the Bible.
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Old 05-28-2010, 01:07 PM
 
4,809 posts, read 3,912,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I think you meant to say ''that was predicted''. That research is readily available. I will point you to the book of Isaiah and its prophecies concerning Tyre.
We have been over the Tyre thing already. Raifus (over on the other forum) has turned that "prophesy" upside down on its head already.


Quote:
And to the defeat of Babylon in 539 B.C. by the Medes and the Persians (Isa 13:17-19).
Has it occured to you that the 'prophesy' was written or edited in AFTER the defeat? You do know that there is the GREAT possibility that the Old Testament, as we know it, was NOT written or compiled until after the Jews (in Babylon) came under the peacful rule of the Persians. How easy is it to write history AFTER the fact?

Quote:
All the Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus Christ for example. If you are truly interested then do the research.
Please show me them.



Quote:
The prophecies are cold hard facts. And no suspension of logic or reason is required. As for talking, you will not listen to me. What you choose to believe is your affair. You seem eager enough to do research for the sake of denying the reality of God. Put that same eagerness to work in doing honest research regarding the prophecies of the Bible.
Mike, you might not be aware of this, but what you do here on City-Data, I did for almost 20 years in my private life, and about 4 years on the internet as a rabid Christian fundamentalist. You say nothing here that I did not believe and said/wrote. Clearly I eventually found it terribly inadequate. So when you tell me to research, I have books I can give you on the subject and I have probably forgotten more than some more currently know. Your information is NOT new to me.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 05-28-2010 at 01:38 PM..
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Old 05-28-2010, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
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The problem here I believe with those that cannot wrap their mind around God splitting Himself up into three is the mere fact:

1) people find it difficult to pray to "two" entities
2) people tend to think "humanly", rather than handing over their limitations to God as omnipotent and able to do anything, and in this regard, to come in the flesh and dwell among men.

God, in the OT, revealed His plan in various events to the prophets about the messiah, and there are many references of Him coming to Israel, as a warrior, king, and saviour of the nation and people. God specifically inspired His prophets that He was going to do this, and it was realized in Christ. Unfortunately, many Jews misinterpreted the scriptures, although many also saw the truth in them when Christ arrived. Such goes for the initial message to the Jews....ie the kingdom is within you.

It is entirely understandable that many cannot see past the human Jesus, and it only takes one act of surrender to have this pacified, and that is Christ coming into us, and dwelling in us, as our Lord God and Saviour.

As I witness in many places throughout, I find this reality in many that are either new to the faith, or have been in struggle with this very concept, and I ask them:

God is pure and holy correct?
He cannot have sin in His presence?

If Christ were just a man, and human, although filled with God, as many of His prophets and saints were, then why, at the cross, did God have to forsake Him?

If Christ was not God, then why did He have to separate Himself from Christ, and forsake His very Son from His presence?

I answer....because they are one. God cannot have sin in Him, and Christ being that He was God in the flesh, HAD TO BE SEPARATED FROM HIM.

Because Christ became sin.

Part of the whole events, transfiguration, death, descent, resurrection, ascension and parousia, is the whole plan in that Christ becomes glorified as not only Messiah on earth, but saviour and God over all of creation. The realization of this is pertinent for one of the faith, for we cannot be full followers of Christ, unless we believe that these events all lead up to Christ, being glorified as God the Son, and that He is all in all with us.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,672,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I concede.. You win.
Wait - but I conceded a possible loss at the end
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Old 05-28-2010, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,672,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

God is pure and holy correct?
He cannot have sin in His presence?
Amazing theology since Jesus hung out with prostitutes and alcoholics and unjust tax collectors. By your definition He would have recoiled in some kind of holy horror. Maybe thinking about this will be a personal breakthrough for you as you are basically parroting the party line on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
If Christ were just a man, and human, although filled with God, as many of His prophets and saints were, then why, at the cross, did God have to forsake Him?
He was NOT forsaken. Surely you understand this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
If Christ was not God, then why did He have to separate Himself from Christ, and forsake His very Son from His presence?
What???

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I answer....because they are one. God cannot have sin in Him, and Christ being that He was God in the flesh, HAD TO BE SEPARATED FROM HIM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Because Christ became sin.
So... God cannot be in the presence of sin, yet God became sin.

(yes - I know you will say it was the human part).

Newsflash: Yes, Jesus IS God (spiritually) and CAN be in the presence of sin.

Sin is what recoils in horror from God - NOT the other way around.

Ever seen light flee because of approaching shadows?
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
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Firstborn,

Your themes are all messed up. Sin is a spiritual defect, not physical.
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Old 05-28-2010, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,748,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Wait - but I conceded a possible loss at the end
No worries... ALL things are made new!
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