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Old 05-27-2010, 11:39 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,026,257 times
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God's wrath is based upon punishment. What did a modern Jew do that is compatible? Why is God lowering the hammer on those now as opposed to the those involved in the rejection and crucifixion of Christ?

If someone has some reasonable alternate explanation, I would be glad to hear it.

Some of this I already posted, but where should the wrath be? Should it be on the children's children visited on the 50th generation ?

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

2 Thessalonians
For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.


But indeed this pervasive theme of who is to endure the wrath is all over scripture.

Acts 2

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Luke 23
27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[g] 31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

According to the warning:

Malachi 4
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:6 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Keep in mind the horrors of misunderstanding with translations of a simple word. The concept of earth for land has got to be the worst. The word used is ha·'a·retz. It means land. The land in the Bible meant the holy land.

There is an Israeli news paper called Haaretz meaning "the land".

http://whois.domaintools.com/haaretz.com
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Old 05-27-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
God's wrath is based upon punishment. What did a modern Jew do that is compatible? Why is God lowering the hammer on those now as opposed to the those involved in the rejection and crucifixion of Christ?

If someone has some reasonable alternate explanation, I would be glad to hear it.

Some of this I already posted, but where should the wrath be? Should it be on the children's children visited on the 50th generation ?

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

2 Thessalonians
For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.


But indeed this pervasive theme of who is to endure the wrath is all over scripture.

Acts 2

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Luke 23
27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[g] 31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

According to the warning:

Malachi 4
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:6 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Keep in mind the horrors of misunderstanding with translations of a simple word. The concept of earth for land has got to be the worst. The word used is ha·'a·retz. It means land. The land in the Bible meant the holy land.

There is an Israeli news paper called Haaretz meaning "the land".

Haaretz.com - Haaretz - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News source.
I don't know if you have read any of my posts, but I have said repeatedly that I AGREE with preterist interpretation of the above verses.

I read Haaretz, by the way.
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Old 05-27-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

If some of the prophecies of Revelation are not fulfilled according to you, and you point out to us Preterists that the world is still full of sin, war, etc, then how do you reconcile in the New Heavens and Earth of Revelation 21 post Armageddon and Mystery Babylon falling, there is still sin?

Secondly, can you honestly say for sure that what Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 3, without venturing outside of the scriptures, was really a conflagration of the entire earth and heavens?
Hi sciotamicks,

I'll try to answer the best I can. I don't understand fully myself, and I REALLY don't think anybody does. Like I said before, Luther was going to chuck Revelation out, and it is the only book Calvin didn't write commentary on.

I think if we all spend TOO much time trying to make others believe as we do, we are going to go prematurely gray!

I wonder, though, if the book is confusing to a lot of people that are IN THE SYSTEM. Hmm......

Okay: Is the conflagration just talking about the HEAVENS being shaken, stars falling (angels), principalities being removed kind of thing? In the Bible, stars usually mean angels, especially when talking about prophecy.

On the other hand, to remove ALL the pollutants from off the earth and all the poisoning (think nuclear waste) maybe the earth WOULD have to be destroyed by a real fire. I don't know. I know it says that we won't need any more sun because God will BE the light. I was kind of hoping for some sunshine, though.

And, I know the Revelation 21 talks about a "lake of fire" whatever that means. BUT, Revelation 22 switches back to talking about those "outside the city" whatever THAT means. It doesn't sound like these people are in any physical pain. It sounds like they may come in if they wish to be made pure. It STILL sound like there IS sin in the New Heavens and Earth. I don't know why.

But, it says the GATES are always open to that pure city. Just a lot of people don't want to go in.

I believe people that believe in the Restoration of All Things take I Corinthians 15 very seriously, and it IS talking about the end of all things, isn't it???

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (we ALL die because of Adam, because of Christ we ALL become "ALIVE!")

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.



Again, the MYSTERY Babylon on this planet right now is NOT coming from the WISDOM of GOD. It CAN'T be!! It is more like SOLOMON'S wisdom (666). And Solomon was into some nasty things. He DID repent of them at last, but quite a few men have picked up what he learned and have run full tilt with it.

God does NOT change. He hated the political and religious structures in the past, and he hates them now. It is confusion and darkness down here. The builders (masons) have built on the WRONG foundation. The STONE that the builders rejected IS CHRIST! I know the Masons like to use that verse, but the god that they worship is NOT the God of the Bible, and the foundation that they are building on is going to collapse.

They worship Solomon, the mysteries, and many other things, but NOT Christ.

Their symbols are ALL OVER THE WORLD! And, they are NOT the symbols of the God of the Bible(although they like to use a lot of symbols from the Bible). You can bet your paper money on THAT! It's not too hard to figure out once you start looking. The economic and religious system that America and many other countries prop up did NOT come from the mind of God. It truly has become BABYLON, that GREAT CITY! All manner of science and math and chemistry and other "advancements" go on down here. But, do people stop killing each other? Does everybody around the world have food? Is everybody living in harmony? Advancement won't cure what ails the soul.

So, those advancements are not bad things by themselves, but they are bringing in DARKNESS with it. They are revolting against the ways of God and trying to use their knowledge to do it.

Give a VERY INTELLIGENT child much knowledge WITHOUT TRUE love and compassion and you have a recipe for disaster. I know many of the lower-level folks in the system are good-hearted people. I KNOW! It breaks my heart that so many people wander around in this system confused and helpless. Remember, Jesus wept! And the disciples wept.

But, the confusion and darkness WILL NOT LAST! In the end, all the confusion will disappear, and the TRUE light of the world will bring clarity and peace to it's people. It will not be the BABYLONIAN (confusing) system with it's goddess lady and her torch trying to light the world.

When you try and bring light into the world without God's power and LOVE you have confusion, chaos, and nasty tempers.

I really don't know what else to say about this. My 2 cents.

Last edited by herefornow; 05-27-2010 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 05-27-2010, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
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herefornow,

You have been reading too many conspiracy theories I believe. But thanks for the thought out reply.

It appears you do believe that creation itself will be made anew by a conflagration of the elements.
However, the scriptures never present anything remotely close to that idea.
The conflagration event of 2 Peter 3, 1 Cor 15, Revelation 21, etc, etc, are none other than dissolution of the Old Covenant World. Would you like to delve deeper on this subject?

It would wipe clean all the speculation and conspiracy in your mind.
Man without Christ can be very evil, and as long as there is a man, there will always be sin nature, and only in Christ, can this be overcome.
That is where lay the victory.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-27-2010 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

You have been reading too many conspiracy theories I believe. But thanks for the thought out reply.

It appears you do believe that creation itself will be made anew by a conflagration of the elements.
However, the scriptures never present anything remotely close to that idea.
The conflagration event of 2 Peter 3, 1 Cor 15, Revelation 21, etc, etc, are none other than dissolution of the Old Covenant World. Would you like to delve deeper on this subject?

It would wipe clean all the speculation and conspiracy in your mind.
Man without Christ can be very evil, and as long as there is a man, there will always be sin nature, and only in Christ, can this be overcome.
That is where lay the victory.
If you read my post, I said I did not know about the conflagration, one way or the other.

But, sciotamicks, you are VERY wrong about Babylon. This is at least ONE thing that I do know. You can AT LEAST agree that ancient symbols are popping up all over the place and have been in the United States for a very long time. You are not blind are you (seriously)? You need to put some SPIRITUAL glasses on.

I HATE conspiracy theories. I would LIKE to just sit around on my butt and play around in my garden and pretend nothing is wrong, and I have TRIED! Ignorance can be bliss, and I would be the happiest woman on this danged planet if everything was blue skies and sunny days.

Listen carefully. I am NOT the only one out there that understands this stuff. I could do what others posters do and link you to a billion other sites (Christian and otherwise) that would back up what I'm saying, but I'd rather tell you in my own words.

My point in all of this is, "The GOD OF THE HEBREWS IS NOT IN CONTROL HERE! Babylon is alive, well, and kicking. If you continue to just look through preterist eyes, you will MISS ALL OF IT!

When you can answer these questions, get back to me. (and, if you really think that these things popped up out of nowhere, just for fun, think again. "THEY" are building YET AGAIN)

1. Why is the European Parliament Building in the shape of the Tower of Babel?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/blogs/20071017050226.jpg (broken link)




2. Why does the Euro have a woman riding a beast on it's currency?


3. Why does the Statue of "Liberty" hold a torch and have a crown with 7 spikes?
4. Why does our currency have an UNFINISHED pyramid on it?
5. Why does our music and movies have SO MANY hideous messages in them? (Do I really need to go there?)
6. Why does the Israeli Supreme Court have a pyramid on it's roof?



7. Why do SO MANY corporations have ancient symbols on them? The Winged Sun-Disk for one (think Chrysler)


Nope, nothing going on here, folks. Nothing at all.


Tell me, sciotamicks, what do YOU think is going on here?

Yeah, next time I start a corporation I think I'll put the ancient sun-disk out there for my symbol.

(True Christians are aliens here. They DO NOT belong. You can keep your eyes closed if you want. Nobody is going to stop you)



Last edited by herefornow; 05-27-2010 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 05-27-2010, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
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herefornow,

Been there done that with everything you have posted, including the pictures.....many years ago.
It's called eisegesis.

Stop looking around for evidence of the kingdom, for it is in the church only, everything else, is death and hell, including the symbols of the old creation. The new creation lies within you, me and everyone else who believes.
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Old 05-27-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

Been there done that with everything you have posted, including the pictures.....many years ago.
It's called eisegesis.

Stop looking around for evidence of the kingdom, for it is in the church only, everything else, is death and hell, including the symbols of the old creation. The new creation lies within you, me and everyone else who believes.
Eisegesis is just a pretty little word to use when people are not using their spiritual glasses or can't understand a deeper meaning behind the text. There are mysteries within mysteries in the Bible. And, NOBODY has it all figured out. Not Luther, Calvin, or even you and your teachers. To understand MYSTERY Babylon, you have to use the SPIRIT.

(And, not a single preterist is answering my question about Sodom......Oh well.....)

I'm glad you have studied, sciotamicks. And you can chuck all the info out if you want. I have and still do sometimes. I know this can get to be a little too much. I only bring this stuff up when people bring up Babylon. Otherwise, I just hang out in the garden, travel, and whatnot.

And of course the KINGDOM is within the individual. But, Babylon is alive and well, too, and getting stronger! And the religious systems have helped prop it up.

What symbol should I use for my Corporation? Winged Sun-Disk or this thing?




Anyhow, I'm done for now (thank goodness, right?).



Last edited by herefornow; 05-27-2010 at 07:37 PM..
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Keep in mind the horrors of misunderstanding with translations of a simple word. The concept of earth for land has got to be the worst. The word used is ha·'a·retz. It means land. The land in the Bible meant the holy land.
The promise to Abraham and his seed (not seeds as to many, nor descendants as some have changed it to read) is interpreted by the apostle, a Biblical definition I can rely on:

"For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 4:13, Conc. Lt. Trans.)

Here, "the land" is beyond merely including "the earth." The real estate inherited by those to whom it is promised is cosmos in the Greek, meaning "the entire universe."
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Old 05-28-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
The promise to Abraham and his seed (not seeds as to many, nor descendants as some have changed it to read) is interpreted by the apostle, a Biblical definition I can rely on:

"For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 4:13, Conc. Lt. Trans.)

Here, "the land" is beyond merely including "the earth." The real estate inherited by those to whom it is promised is cosmos in the Greek, meaning "the entire universe."
There are four different Greek words from which our single word “world” is translated, all of which have different meanings.
They are oikoumene, ge, aion and kosmos.

Even if you do not speak Greek, you can see that these words are different. Oikoumene means inhabited earth. Ge, means land. Aion means age or period of time and kosmos means an orderly system or arrangement, like that of the New or Old Covenant orders. Sometimes they are used in the same context and verse interchangeably but often they are not.
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

If some of the prophecies of Revelation are not fulfilled according to you, and you point out to us Preterists that the world is still full of sin, war, etc, then how do you reconcile in the New Heavens and Earth of Revelation 21 post Armageddon and Mystery Babylon falling, there is still sin?
I knoow you address herefornow, but . . . I think there may always exist the potential for sin, though I'm not certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Secondly, can you honestly say for sure that what Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 3, without venturing outside of the scriptures, was really a conflagration of the entire earth and heavens?
Why are you saying, "without venturing outside of the scriptures?" The Revelation of God and His law, according to the Scripture, is not confined to Scripture.

Ps. 19:1 Written on Nature
Rm 2:15 Written on Conscience
Ex 24:12 Written on Tablets of Stone
Jn 1:14 Christ the Living Word
Rm 15:4 The Entire Scriptures
Hb 8:10 Written on the Heart
Cor 3:2-3 Christians as Living Epistles

In about a billion years the Milky Way, our own galaxy, and Andromeda, about 2 1/2 times bigger than ours, will begin to collide. Maybe that approaches the time the earth and all it's works will be consumed with a fervent heat.
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