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Why are you saying, "without venturing outside of the scriptures?" The Revelation of God and His law, according to the Scripture, is not confined to Scripture.
Ps. 19:1 Written on Nature
Rm 2:15 Written on Conscience
Ex 24:12 Written on Tablets of Stone
Jn 1:14 Christ the Living Word
Rm 15:4 The Entire Scriptures
Hb 8:10 Written on the Heart
Cor 3:2-3 Christians as Living Epistles
In which the scriptures clearly cover exhaustively and monumentally.
Quote:
In about a billion years the Milky Way, our own galaxy, and Andromeda, about 2 1/2 times bigger than ours, will begin to collide. Maybe that approaches the time the earth and all it's works will be consumed with a fervent heat.
Stocheia - Elements
Collosians 2
Discussed the passing of the elements Vs. 20
"elements" were to pass away Vs. 20
The world/Kosmos was to pass away Vs. 20f
The call to righteousness in light of the passing of the elements Vs. 20-22 The Elements were the basic doctrines of Old Covenant Israel
2 Peter 3
Discussion of the passing of the elements Vs. 10
"elements" were to pass away Vs. 10
The world/Kosmos was to pass away Vs. 4f
The call to righteousness in light of the passing of the elements Vs. 13 Peter said his doctrine of the elements is what Paul taught
Sciotamics,
I know "Stocheia = Elements!!!" I've seen so many that are robbed by thinking there is only one viewpoint, only one interpretation for things manifestly much deeper. Just because Paul said Hagar was a covenant corresponding to Mt Siniai (a kingdom) and Sarah, being free, concieved another way, and is another covenant and another kingdom (Mt Zion,) doesn't mean their real history with Abraham is invalid. So much is to be heard on more than one level. Just because Mt 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD doesn't mean that portion of Scripture has no more value or that it has come to an end. Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism are surface and literal interpretations of meaning. They're like the outer court of the temple. It's a poor man that, refusing to dig deeper, is content with only those nuggets he finds on the surface.
We know, almost absolutely, that the whole cosmos has an end whether or not we got the right verse with which to say it for the moment. There are other statements to that effect in the Scripture.
Psalm 102:25-28 (AV):
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 05-28-2010 at 10:20 PM..
Sciotamics,
I know "Stocheia = Elements!!!" I've seen so many that are robbed by thinking there is only one viewpoint, only one interpretation for things manifestly much deeper. Just because Paul said Hagar was a covenant corresponding to Mt Siniai (a kingdom) and Sarah, being free, concieved another way, and is another covenant and another kingdom (Mt Zion,) doesn't mean their real history with Abraham is invalid. So much is to be heard on more than one level. Just because Mt 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD doesn't mean that portion of Scripture has no more value or that it has come to an end. Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism are surface and literal interpretations of meaning. They're like the outer court of the temple. It's a poor man that, refusing to dig deeper, is content with only those nuggets he finds on the surface.
We know, almost absolutely, that the whole cosmos has an end whether or not we got the right verse with which to say it for the moment. There are other statements to that effect in the Scripture.
I believe you are wrong. The kingdom of Christ "continues to increase unto a world without end" means just that Isaiah 9:6
His kingdom continues to increase, which denotes, an ongoing election. Your "several" level interpretation is like that of Dual Prophecy, it doesn't exist. The scriptures have everything a Christian needs to bring themselves closer to God, for it is....His words. Christ spoke, it was written since the foundation of the world, isn't that enough? It is for me.
Quote:
Psalm 102:25-28 (AV):
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
Luke 5:36,37 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old.And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Hebrew 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment.
Jude 1:8, 23 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts......And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garmentspotted by the flesh.
Isaiah 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor? The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail. But I [am] the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts [is] his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people. Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified
Psalm 68:18,19,20 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them]. Blessed [be] the Lord, [who] daily loadeth us [with benefits, even] the God of our salvation. Selah. [He that is] our God [is] the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord [belong] the issues from death.
Isa 51:14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Matt 23:25-32 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Sorry James, but too much points to Israel, the Old Covenant, and the Law, as the elements and the heavens and the earth.
The only spiritually discerning conclusion can one offer in light of this small portion of hundreds, if not thousands of scriptural references that clearly identify these very terms and phrases, as none other than what has already transpired. The Old Creation already ended, for those in Christ 1 Cor 15...we have that victory over Death and Hades.
I am clothed with the New Creation 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:15; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10
The meaning of the second death is simply this....Death and Hades, both euphemisms and symbols that denote the Old Covenant conflagration in Revelation 20. In the New Heavens and Earth, those without Christ, suffer the SAME death as the Old Covenant world suffered....spiritual separation, only this time, eternally, as God and Christ reign from the throne is eternal.
The fulfillment of Moses' song for God's people has already been sung.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Would you like some more?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-29-2010 at 02:20 AM..
I believe you are wrong. The kingdom of Christ "continues to increase unto a world without end" means just that Isaiah 9:6
His kingdom continues to increase, which denotes, an ongoing election. Your "several" level interpretation is like that of Dual Prophecy, it doesn't exist. The scriptures have everything a Christian needs to bring themselves closer to God, for it is....His words. Christ spoke, it was written since the foundation of the world, isn't that enough? It is for me.
Luke 5:36,37 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old.And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Hebrew 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish;
but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment.
Jude 1:8, 23 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts......And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garmentspotted
by the flesh.
Isaiah 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared
continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor? The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail. But I [am] the LORD thy God, that divided the sea,
whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts [is] his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people. Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his
fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified
Psalm 68:18,19,20 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them]. Blessed [be] the Lord, [who] daily loadeth us [with benefits, even] the God of our salvation. Selah. [He that is] our God [is] the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord [belong] the issues from death.
Isa 51:14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he
should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their
bosom.
Matt 23:25-32 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within
the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous
unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye
are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which
is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Sorry James, but too much points to Israel, the Old Covenant, and the Law, as the elements and the heavens and the earth.
The only spiritually discerning conclusion can one offer in light of this small portion of hundreds, if not thousands of scriptural references that clearly
identify these very terms and phrases, as none other than what has already transpired. The Old Creation already ended, for those in Christ 1 Cor 15...we have that victory over Death and Hades.
I am clothed with the New Creation 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:15; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10
The meaning of the second death is simply this....Death and Hades, both euphemisms and symbols that denote the Old Covenant conflagration in
Revelation 20. In the New Heavens and Earth, those without Christ, suffer the SAME death as the Old Covenant world suffered....spiritual separation, only this time, eternally, as God and Christ reign from the throne is eternal.
The fulfillment of Moses' song for God's people has already been sung.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the
earth.
Would you like some more?
Sciotamicks, you can list as many verses as you want. You are right about much, as preterists are, but you are missing crucial pieces.
And, you and your friends still have not cleared up a very SIMPLE problem for me. Isn't it all just that simple?. I'll ask for the 5th time.
How do you get "Jerusalem" for "Sodom" in the prophecy that Jesus spoke of? If Sodom (you say that is SPIRITUAL Jerusalem) had seen the miracles I performed she would STILL BE standing TODAY. You say he is talking about Jerusalem, but Jerusalem was standing when Jesus spoke those words!! What am I missing??????
Sciotamicks, you can list as many verses as you want. You are right about much, as preterists are, but you are missing crucial pieces.
Enlighten us...but stay within the scripture, or I will discard it.
Quote:
How do you get "Jerusalem" for "Sodom" in the prophecy that Jesus spoke of? If Sodom (you say that is SPIRITUAL Jerusalem) had seen the miracles I performed she would STILL BE standing TODAY. You say he is talking about Jerusalem, but Jerusalem was standing when Jesus spoke those words!! What am I missing??????
John answers you in Revelation what Jerusalem is...Sodom, Egypt.
I don't say it is, Christ told John this. So I believe it. You should too.
Enlighten us...but stay within the scripture, or I will discard it.
John answers you in Revelation what Jerusalem is...Sodom, Egypt.
I don't say it is, Christ told John this. So I believe it. You should too.
Did you even read what I wrote? For Pete's sake.
Are you saying Matthew was wrong? John wrote Revelation, when? Scholars mostly say around 95 A.D. At least they DID once upon a time; during Domitian's rule, right? I'm sure you will disagree as preterists do, but, my point is that John wrote Revelation AFTER Jesus talked with Capernaum. And, Jesus was speaking TO Capernaum when he spoke these things. So, the miracles that he performed for everybody HAD been seen AND REJECTED by Jerusalem.
I don't see how the heck a preterist can bend and twist this one to fit (you're going to get some kind of sprain doing that). I just don't. And that's not the only one like it.
I KNOW that Jerusalem is equated to Sodom SPIRITUALLY elsewhere in the Bible, like, what, one time, and only in Revelation! But, (spiritual) Sodom (Jerusalem, you say) HAD seen the miracles!
Jesus said, I repeat, "if they had seen the miracles that I've showed you they would still be standing today.". And what about Nineveh? Same thing said about that city.
I'm dreadfully sorry, but you are twisting things up terribly, or your teachers are. Sometimes, you just need some good ol' fashion common sense instead of wading through mind-bending books and such.
Last edited by herefornow; 05-29-2010 at 03:55 AM..
The letter of Revelation by John was YEARS after this interaction, right?
I will try and make this simple. Not that you are stupid. I just don't think I am making this clear enough.
Matthew 11:23. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Okay: I'll give you my version first and then I'll do yours.
1. Okay, guys (Capernaum). You are going down. If Sodom (Old Testament Sodom, literal city) had seen what I was doing here, they would STILL be here. BOY, you guys are a stubborn group. Sodom didn't get to see any of my miracles in the flesh and God took em' out, but if I had shown up in that city raising the dead, they would have straightened up!
The End.
2. Okay, guys (Capernaum). You are going down. If Sodom (Jerusalem, or SPIRITUAL Sodom as you say) had seen my miracles (didn't Jerusalem see Jesus' miracles?), they would still be here (wasn't Jerusalem standing when Jesus said that?).
Etc, etc.
The End.
Fix it how you see it, if you want. Can you explain this simply?
Last edited by herefornow; 05-29-2010 at 03:47 AM..
And, don't forget Matthew 12:41. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment of THIS GENERATION and condemn (judge) it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The reference is to the great City (Jerusalem) spiritually Sodom and Egypt -- and it is also where our Lord was crucified
The reference that Jesus was making in Matt to Sodom was about the actual physical Sodom.
In the OT Israel is referred to as "Sodom" not sure about Egypt??
Quote:
Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
I have a suspicion that just as in the NT the blessings transfer from physical Israel to spiritual Israel -- that in Revelation it is a prophecy about the physical destruction in 70AD that there is spiritual application as well -- for spiritual Israel ............
I think that the preterists are right about the physical fulfillments and while the historicists/futurists are looking for a literal physical fulfillments I wonder if it is more "spiritual"
Well said meerkat.......herefornow...you are too busy trying to "see" these things, when Christ never said, they were going to be "seen"..but rather.....ὀφθαλμὸς ...which consistently denotes.....
Seeing with the heart and mind....IOW...knowing.
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. I'll ask for the 5th time.
