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Old 05-25-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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I realize this shows eternal seperation before Christs sacrifice but I still dont see universalism for the world.
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Old 05-26-2010, 03:46 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,175 times
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Hi Robin, Good to see you back, how are you??

I do not believe the parable is actually talking about UR or ET.

The person who believes in ET uses this parable to prove that there is ET because it mentions fire, torment and hell -- what I believe it is talking about is the separation of the Old Covenant which could not save and the new Covenant that Jesus brought in with his death and resurrection.

The Jews (Rich man) for their rejection of their Messiah were destined for destruction, wrath genhenna (70AD)

The gentiles (Lazarus) were preached the gospel and were 'in the bosum of Abraham' - they become children of Abraham through faith in Christ.
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Old 05-27-2010, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hi Robin, Good to see you back, how are you??

I do not believe the parable is actually talking about UR or ET.

The person who believes in ET uses this parable to prove that there is ET because it mentions fire, torment and hell -- what I believe it is talking about is the separation of the Old Covenant which could not save and the new Covenant that Jesus brought in with his death and resurrection.

The Jews (Rich man) for their rejection of their Messiah were destined for destruction, wrath genhenna (70AD)

The gentiles (Lazarus) were preached the gospel and were 'in the bosum of Abraham' - they become children of Abraham through faith in Christ.
Amen Meerkat


Robin read Romans chapter 11 as that whole chapter speaks of the parable under discussion.

Take speacial note of verse 15
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I realize this shows eternal seperation before Christs sacrifice but I still dont see universalism for the world.
What caused you to realize it shows eternal separation?
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I realize this shows eternal seperation before Christs sacrifice but I still dont see universalism for the world.
Hi RobinD69, if you look at this parable it shows that the Rich man is in Hades (Hell). This is not the same word (Hades) that is used to support the doctrine of eternal torment (Gehenna) but rather Hades. Even Jesus went to Hades.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

See that? His soul was not left in Hell (Hades) the very same place that the Rich man is at:

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

So Jesus and the Rich man are spoken of as being in the same Hell (Hades).

Do further research there is much more to show about this but I'll withdraw for now.
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Old 05-29-2010, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What caused you to realize it shows eternal separation?
GOOD question!

What's more, what exactly is the reason the rich man went to hell? Because he didn't "choose" Jesus? No mention of that. All we see is that he had shut up his goods (and heart?) from his neighbor.

Lazarus also didn't "accept" Jesus, based on the story. He was poor, and maybe sick. That's all we really know about him.

I think we have many assumptions about this story which we have been told by Christendom, but which do not have any basis. This is a good part of the Gospel to explore!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 05-29-2010, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi RobinD69, if you look at this parable it shows that the Rich man is in Hades (Hell). This is not the same word (Hades) that is used to support the doctrine of eternal torment (Gehenna) but rather Hades. Even Jesus went to Hades.
Yes, Hades is a temporary place of torment for unbelievers. Believers also went to Hades in the old days, but to the good side aka Abraham's bosom, but when Christ died, he took Abraham, and the believers with him to heaven, so at this point in time, only the unbelievers and the fallen angels are there. during the white throne judgement, the unbelievers will be transferred to permanent hell, the lake of fire.
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Old 05-29-2010, 06:59 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Robin,

Here is a link to a universalist article concerning the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

19. The Rich Man and Lazarus

I'm still learning also, so I'm not really in a position to debate any of this right now.
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Old 05-29-2010, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Lazarus is in the parable is actually Simon the Leper. The same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
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Old 05-29-2010, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Also, the Rich man is a reference to the High Priest. The Lepers were laid outside the gate. (remember they are considered unclean). You know this Lazarus is a leper because he is full of sores (the dogs licked his sores).

When this parable is spoken of the Jews would have definately known who these people were. At this point Lazarus would have been known throughtout the area and the rich man's description is that of the High Priest for he it is that wears such garments.
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