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Old 05-14-2011, 04:19 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
See post 12, I explained what I meant.
Yes, I got that part

However, I've clearly shown you where scripture disagrees with your doctrine. Did you understand what I meant when I explained that?
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:17 PM
 
672 posts, read 536,662 times
Reputation: 38
alabama:

Quote:
Yes, I got that part

Ok then, you constantly keep inquiring about things I already explained.
Quote:

However, I've clearly shown you where scripture disagrees with your doctrine.
Thats ok, thats your opinion, but it does not change anything I have said already. At best it may cause for further explanation, which I will not do since you already dont believe what I have already shown you. There is no sense taking you to point 10 if you are stuck at point 1..
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:30 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
alabama:

Ok then, you constantly keep inquiring about things I already explained.
I'm confronting your doctrines with my questions, if you haven't guessed.

Look, if scripture says one thing, and you blatantly contradict it, based upon a particular doctrine or theory of yours, what do you expect?

Are you now claiming superiority over scripture?

Quote:
Thats ok, thats your opinion, but it does not change anything I have said already. At best it may cause for further explanation, which I will not do since you already dont believe what I have already shown you. There is no sense taking you to point 10 if you are stuck at point 1..
It's not my opinion...lol...And, I've already confronted you with the scriptures that contradict your doctrines.

Point 10 ? Being stuck on point 1? LOL

I'm starting to sense that you've got an IQ of about 75. Am I close?
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:42 PM
 
672 posts, read 536,662 times
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alabama:

Quote:
I'm confronting your doctrines with my questions,
Many of them I have answered, and many I will not answer because you have failed to show understanding in the more simpler things.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:57 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
alabama:

Many of them I have answered, and many I will not answer because you have failed to show understanding in the more simpler things.
Well, let's start over:

According to your doctrine, righteousness is imputed prior to regeneration and then imparted in the new birth.

Here is what scripture actually tells us:

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

I don't see the word "impart" here. The Greek word μεταδουναι would be the term we would see if scripture meant "impart". That is not what scripture uses with regards to righteousness. The term scripture uses is "imputed". It's translated from the Greek word λογίζομαι, simply meaning to "impute", "reckon to" or "account". Not impart.

Further, scripture really makes no distinction between objective vs subjective imputation. What I think you might be doing is trying to make a distinction between objective justification vs. subjective justification. If that is what you actually mean, then yes, I would agree . However, that is not what you're actually saying. You seem to be struggling with terms and meanings.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:43 PM
 
672 posts, read 536,662 times
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alabama:

Quote:
Well, let's start over:

No lets not start over, I said what I have said..
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:47 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
alabama:
No lets not start over, I said what I have said..
You were very tenaciouss Alabama . . . but you are dealing with unreasoning credulity. There is no independent thought or reasoning . . . just parroting of dogma and refusal to answer direct questions.
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:05 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
alabama:

No lets not start over, I said what I have said..
All right, we'll leave that part well enough alone...

If I might, I think what you're really trying to say is that imputed righteousness is objective justification, and imparted righteousness (of which there is really no such thing) is subjective justification. If that is what you mean to say, we agree in concept, but not in language. I say in concept because the scriptural terms and meanings you're employing are really not correct.

The idea in scripture is that in our justification (the Greek word is δικαιουντα and literally means: to "declare righteous") a forensic declaration by God is made upon the sinner who is acquitted by Christ. The declaration is always objective upon the one to whom the declaration is made.

This "declaration of righteous" (Christ's own righteousness) is made to us in the resurrection of Christ.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

I've used a literal translation of Rom 4:25 ^^^ taken from the YLT version, to help clarify this.

Those verses above speak of our objective justification. The "declaration of righteous" that was pronounced by God, in the resurrection of Christ.

Now, up to this point, nothing as yet has been imputed to the sinners account, only the verdict by the Judge who pronounced: "Declared Righteous". That declaration being the forensic finding of God that we are declared righteous based upon Christ's own righteousness of faith, the faithfulness of Christ's sinless life and going to the cross to die for our sins.

When we believe that pronouncement of God's "declaration of righteous" (our objective justification), we are imputed subjectively so with that declaration. We've always had the declaration objectively, but it now (in time) becomes imputed subjectively to our account, through the gift of faith. The objective declaration becoming a subjective reality that brings with it the knowledge of our reconciliation to God.

Do you see that? If this is what you're saying, or trying to say, we agree .
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
alabama:

... I said what I have said..
which is a whole lot of nothing....
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What does it mean when the Bible states that Abraham was imputed with righteousness?
God talking to Abraham>......by grace, ye (Abraham) were saved through (Abraham's) faith and that not of you ...Abraham it (Abraham's salvation) is the gift of God

Christ's righteousness is of his faith, which is imputed in us, because of our faith in Him. Blessings!
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