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Old 05-25-2010, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Originally Posted by Universalist
The scriptures plainly teach that if one confesses Christ as lord, they will be saved ... And no one can ever say Christ is lord unless it is by the holy spirit. Also the scriptures also teach that in the end everyone will confess Christ as lord, therefore in the end everyone will be saved.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it teach that one must confess Christ is lord before they die in order to be saved.
This poster has said it clearly. People try to find excuses why the confession will be false or too late, yet both contradict what God has said.

Does God hope and wish to save a person one second before death, but one second after death He wants to damn that person to eternal suffering? NO! God doesn't change. God wants to save all, and all will want to be saved. Its so simple.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
There are certainly different views on this one.

There are those who will teach that even if they had not heard the name Christ, they have no excuse.

This is also where the issue of age of accountability comes in even if it is through implication.

Few, if any, sects of Christianity would teach that an aborted baby would be sentenced to eternal doom. That said, then this implies that there is indeed an age at which a human being is responsible for their choice. If an aborted baby is automatically in heaven, then there is an age at which, if not aborted, that same baby must make a choice.

If there is indeed no age of accountability then it could be reasoned that an aborted baby could be in hell, since no one has any excuses, this could include an unborn baby.

However some sects of calvinism would teach that an aborted baby would be doomed by the proxy of Gods predestination. Even further more those who believe in the serpent seed doctrine teach that a certain percentage of humanity are the children of Satan and therefore doomed as well.

Then we have the teachings that we are accountable to God so if someone has not heard they are not accountable for what they do not know. This teaching instructs people to go out into the world and find people who have not heard therefore presenting them with the choice. At that point they have heard and thus, rather than being in heaven out of ignorance, they now have a chance to go to hell forever.


So since there isn't any of the above beliefs that would not have their exegesis handy to prove they are right, I will let them keep hashing it out and simply stick with the God who refuses to give up on anyone.
Yes!
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Does one have to confess Christ as Lord before one dies in order to be saved? YES.

Discuss?.........You're here today, right? You've heard, right? What's stopping you? What are you waiting on? How many times have you heard....TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION?
Judging by your post, you should know this is not about me-I am born again since 1983, baptized in the Holy Spirit and I do not wish to say anything beyond that. Just know that this thread is not about me, but it is about wanting others to discuss this issue as it relates to the universalist's POV that you can be right with God after death-after saying no thanks to Jesus.

But thanks for your concern.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This poster has said it clearly. People try to find excuses why the confession will be false or too late, yet both contradict what God has said.

Does God hope and wish to save a person one second before death, but one second after death He wants to damn that person to eternal suffering? NO! God doesn't change. God wants to save all, and all will want to be saved. Its so simple.
I disagree with the universalist POV and this post.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I may have asked you this before, Betsey, but I can't remember your answer. Let's say there is a little four-year-old girl living today in North Korea. She has never heard of Jesus Christ, so obviously she has not "confessed Him." If she dies, do you believe she will go to Hell?
Read your Bible. Or mine. Or anyone's.

John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. NIV

You can't reject what you have not been offered. Any questions?
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I disagree with the universalist POV and this post.
Please clarify what you disagree with.

All will not bow and confess to Jesus?
This confession will not be a true confession for some?
God doesn't want to save people after death?
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Read your Bible. Or mine. Or anyone's.

John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. NIV

You can't reject what you have not been offered. Any questions?
Are you saying those who never heard will get eternal life? If so, why are we evangelizing to the world?

Or maybe I misunderstood you.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I would say no. Otherwise salvation would preclude infants that die at birth, or shortly thereafter. How will (or did) David's illegitimate son enter the Kingdom? David did say that he would one day be with him, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I may have asked you this before, Betsey, but I can't remember your answer. Let's say there is a little four-year-old girl living today in North Korea. She has never heard of Jesus Christ, so obviously she has not "confessed Him." If she dies, do you believe she will go to Hell?
Everyone is deserving of death and eternal separation from God.

However, on the subject of children, I will start by pointing to Isaiah:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The Bible tells us that even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people including infants and children are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.

Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way that God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Also, Peter stated in Acts 4:12, "there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Salvation is an individual choice.

Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

With the above thoughts in mind, also consider the following...Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. 1 John 2:2 says Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing, since we must be able to believe or not believe in order to reject or accept the truth of Christ.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic, as AlabamaStorm brought up, more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But, once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." David's response was, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

David's response can be seen as an argument that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would once again see the child (in heaven as an inference of the passage), though he could not bring him back.

Though the Bible leaves open the possibility, the one problem with saying that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who can't believe is that the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject for which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. We can, however, be dogmatic about the fact that God ALWAYS does what is right.

Knowing the love and grace of God as well as the justice in Him is unending, holy and right, God applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character IMO. It is my position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, as most of the Christian church does, as far as I can tell.

But in regards to the OP and the matter of hearing the gospel and rejecting it, this matter is closed ended and moot, as the scriptrues are VERY clear on the outcome of this kind of behaviour. In this world today, in the 21st Century, not hearing the gospel is almost an impossibility. I have seen it with my own eyes in the most remote parts of the world, where you would think it could never be present, but its there.....thriving in the once pagan cultures. If you make it to an age where you can make a spritual decision about your faith, and who you are going to follow, that IMO is the moment where your fate is sealed, and you are destined for the burning flame, unless you repent and accept Christ Jesus as your Lord God and Saviour.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,902 posts, read 8,476,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Are you saying those who never heard will get eternal life? If so, why are we evangelizing to the world?

Or maybe I misunderstood you.
So you are saying that those who have not heard the Gospel are condemned. Many hold that view. It's OK that you believe that. But I believe that those who have never heard will be judged on their own merits. They are not automatically condemed, because they have not rejected Jesus
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,902 posts, read 8,476,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Please clarify what you disagree with.

All will not bow and confess to Jesus?
This confession will not be a true confession for some?
God doesn't want to save people after death?
Please refer to my posting history for the last two weeks. You've read it. No point in posting all that stuff again. If you didn't get it the first time posting it up a second won't make any difference.

Why waste both of our time.
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