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Old 05-26-2010, 12:07 AM
 
3,577 posts, read 455,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
So you are saying that those who have not heard the Gospel are condemned. Many hold that view. It's OK that you believe that. But I believe that those who have never heard will be judged on their own merits. They are not automatically condemed, because they have not rejected Jesus
But we are told that it not our works that saves us. It is by grace through faith -- And that all will be judged on their works. Not just those that did not hear the gospel but have a loophole to slip through by their works (so that they can boast?)
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Read your Bible. Or mine. Or anyone's.

John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. NIV

You can't reject what you have not been offered. Any questions?
Hi Mr5150,

I don't know if you see it or not, but John 3:36 doesn't mention anything about "this life" or "later on." It simply says that those who reject Him don't have life. Period. Nothing there about "at what point."

Is God's arm too short that it cannot save?

The things that are impossible with man, with God are possible.

All judgement has been given to the Son. "I judge no man." -the Son.

And neither should we.

My 2c,

Blessings to you, nice thread!
Brian
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
But we are told that it not our works that saves us. It is by grace through faith -- And that all will be judged on their works. Not just those that did not hear the gospel but have a loophole to slip through by their works (so that they can boast?)
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So does Eph. 2:9 contradict Rev. 20:13?

Hmmm,

blessings,
Brian
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Read your Bible. Or mine. Or anyone's.

John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. NIV

You can't reject what you have not been offered. Any questions?
Actually the verse says whoever rejects the son will not SEE life for/because God's wrath remains on him...

They will not SEE LIFE ... They are blind to life. It is there but they cannot see it. Why? For God's wrath remains on him.

What is God's wrath? And why would that make you blind?

So God could have mercy on all? So the light shines on ALL?
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:18 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Though the Bible leaves open the possibility, the one problem with saying that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who can't believe is that the Bible does not specifically say that He does this.
Actually it does, but not in so many words. If you'll remember the events of Passover, only one person (the head of the household) was required to take the blood of the slain lamb and apply it to the jambs and along the lintel of the door to their house. Only one needed to do it:

Exo 12:21 And Moses calleth for all the elders of Israel, and saith unto them, `Draw out and take for yourselves from the flock, for your families, and slaughter the passover-sacrifice;
Exo 12:22 and ye have taken a bunch of hyssop, and have dipped it in the blood which is in the basin, and have struck it on the lintel, and on the two side-posts, from the blood which is in the basin, and ye, ye go not out each from the opening of his house till morning.
Exo 12:23 `And Jehovah hath passed on to smite the Egyptians, and hath seen the blood on the lintel, and on the two side-posts, and Jehovah hath passed over the opening, and doth not permit the destruction to come into your houses to smite.

Those who where within the house (old or young, weak or strong, of faith or not) were saved from death. Do you remember what Paul told the jailer in Acts, "thou and thy house"? The same principle applied.

Act 16:31 and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved--thou and thy house;

This same principle is also applied to the world, the household for whom the lamb of God is slain. Here it is:

Joh 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

The Lamb of God was slain for the world. And how do we know who this world belongs to? Well, God Himself tells us who owns it:

Psa 24:1 THE earth is the LORD’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

The LORD owns the world, and they that dwell therein. God owns the household for whom the lamb was slain. And how do we know God applied the blood of the Lamb to the world household? Right here:

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

The world's sins, your sins and my sins, are gone. Our sins are not imputed, not reckoned to us.

Here is what David said concerning it:

Rom 4:7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;
Rom 4:8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

Believe it Sciota.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:55 AM
 
3,577 posts, read 455,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
So does Eph. 2:9 contradict Rev. 20:13?

Hmmm,

blessings,
Brian
I don't believe so. They are judged on their works,, it does not save them -- I think the Peter verse ties it together - gospel is preached so the dead are judged for deeds in the flesh,, what we sow we reap ----- salvation is a gift of God by his grace only, we do not earn it.......
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,472,599 times
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if your life has been one long string of evil how is confessing guna stop judgement?
karma is guna happen.
unless someone like christ takes on your karma.
what a cruel thing to do to him.
how bout we shape up instead?
a few good decisions can turn an oceanliner around.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
if your life has been one long string of evil how is confessing guna stop judgement?
karma is guna happen.
unless someone like christ takes on your karma.
what a cruel thing to do to him.

how bout we shape up instead?
a few good decisions can turn an oceanliner around.

Hmmm.....you got me thinking. I guess Jesus felt the wrath of God poured out on Him. And if we become as children and get out of the world's sytems and it's thoughts, we become salvaged. If we don't trust in Him and get behind that covering, we are still under the "wrath" or judgment.


It was a cruel death that Jesus died, and the Bible says He was without sin. Even the Romans couldn't find anything wrong with Him. He did nothing to deserve such a cruel death.

But, the Bible does talk about reaping what you sow for EVERYBODY, saint and sinner alike if you want to look at it that way, which sounds kind of like karma. I think it's talking about this lifetime in the Bible, but then again a lot of people don't reap what they sow before they die here.

I believe that Jesus paid our price, death, which means we ALL rise again, but the reaping what you sow comes into play after death. The Bible also speaks of judging ourselves and forgiving others right now, so we will not have to be ashamed later.

So.......just thinking.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:32 AM
 
3,577 posts, read 455,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
But, the Bible does talk about reaping what you sow for EVERYBODY, saint and sinner alike if you want to look at it that way, which sounds kind of like karma. I think it's talking about this lifetime in the Bible, but then again a lot of people don't reap what they sow before they die here.

I believe that Jesus paid our price, death, which means we ALL rise again, but the reaping what you sow comes into play after death. The Bible also speaks of judging ourselves and forgiving others right now, so we will not have to be ashamed later.

So.......just thinking.
I agree .....

There is this verse that I think speaks of this
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:33 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,409,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
So you are saying that those who have not heard the Gospel are condemned. Many hold that view. It's OK that you believe that.

No thats not what I'm saying at all. I was asking if you were saying that those who never heard got a free pass into heaven.

Quote:
But I believe that those who have never heard will be judged on their own merits. They are not automatically condemed, because they have not rejected Jesus
Ok I understand. But if that is true, why evangelize? Under your system, since they aren't automatically condemned, don't people have a better "chance" if they are judged on their own merits?

Furthermore, under your system, salvation is based on works, which we know cannot be true.
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