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Old 05-28-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,721,082 times
Reputation: 212

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Conclude that to your own eternal destruction.

Christ is Yahweh (http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/isaiah/yhwhchrist.html - broken link)


More evidence from Jesus... referring to his Father, who sent him:

St. John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

St. John 12:50: And I know that his commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

St. John 15:28: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I.

St. John 15:31: But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do...

Why would his Father have to give him a commandment if he was already God? Why did he say "my Father is greater than I?"

Was it because Jesus isn't God?

Jesus is not God, but was sent by the Father (http://tinyurl.com/2vk4ket - broken link)
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,305,481 times
Reputation: 420
People can cherry pick the verses where Christ is "sent" by the "Father" and "prays" to the Father, but it is contradicted by numerous other passages that directly link Him to being Yaweh. This being the case, the first argument in regards to Him NOT being God in the flesh, is in error.

It is obvious that through many verses, it is seen that God comes and dwells among men to usher in the kingdom, as well as John, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews have plainly stated the Fulness of the Godhead, so it must be concluded that even though prior to His death, it is vague to some that He never claimed to be such, even though there are plenty of areas which that can be seen or inferred, wherein the Jews themselves claimed His words blasphemous and only those are for God's usage, and that the second presumption must be the correct one, as is stated throughout the scriptures. If we were to apply logic to this argument, the we see that:

A = God
B = Christ
C = A + B

A said He would dwell among His people
B did dwell among His people and claimed deity

Therefore C is the correct answer regardless of the few passages that "appear" to contradict C, even though they are really giving credible foundation to C intimately.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,697,704 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It's staring you right in the face!!!

Exodus 3:14 'And God said to Moses, ''I AM WHO I AM''; AND He said, ''Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.''

John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

Link:

I Am statements of Jesus
Mike, when I was reading this thread and seeing some of the responses this verse came to mind.

2 Cor 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

It truly makes no sense that they don't understand which is why I know that Satan is blinding them otherwise they would see what we see. The Jews understood what Jesus was saying! To me, it's so obvious that Jesus is God.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,424,826 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Mike, when I was reading this thread and seeing some of the responses this verse came to mind.

2 Cor 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

It truly makes no sense that they don't understand which is why I know that Satan is blinding them otherwise they would see what we see. The Jews understood what Jesus was saying! To me, it's so obvious that Jesus is God.
Isn't this a new age? or do you think we are still stuck in the bible age? The PRE-salvation age? The god of this current age is God...

If something so convoluted is clear to you then I must wonder how deep your understanding is!
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,424,826 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
People can cherry pick the verses where Christ is "sent" by the "Father" and "prays" to the Father, but it is contradicted by numerous other passages that directly link Him to being Yaweh. This being the case, the first argument in regards to Him NOT being God in the flesh, is in error.

It is obvious that through many verses, it is seen that God comes and dwells among men to usher in the kingdom, as well as John, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews have plainly stated the Fulness of the Godhead, so it must be concluded that even though prior to His death, it is vague to some that He never claimed to be such, even though there are plenty of areas which that can be seen or inferred, wherein the Jews themselves claimed His words blasphemous and only those are for God's usage, and that the second presumption must be the correct one, as is stated throughout the scriptures. If we were to apply logic to this argument, the we see that:

A = God
B = Christ
C = A + B

A said He would dwell among His people
B did dwell among His people and claimed deity

Therefore C is the correct answer regardless of the few passages that "appear" to contradict C, even though they are really giving credible foundation to C intimately.
That formula needs to be based on something other than your definition of A and B, don't you think?

Let's Change it up a bit:
A = Spirit
B = Mankind
C = A + B

Now that contradicts nothing.... but doesn't state Jesus is God either....

What a peculiar way to try to prove Jesus is God... I haven't seen that one before!
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,697,704 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Isn't this a new age? or do you think we are still stuck in the bible age? The PRE-salvation age? The god of this current age is God...

If something so convoluted is clear to you then I must wonder how deep your understanding is!
Oh, kat....

How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:25 PM
 
20,396 posts, read 15,765,671 times
Reputation: 7566
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Listen, I believe with all my heart that Jesus existed and he took on the world to bring us back from the "dead!" I DO!

But, can somebody PLEASE tell me how Jesus has his own will if he was God, then? I have asked this repeatedly on these kinds of threads and haven't received an answer besides katjonjj's.

Not MY will but YOURS be done.......etc.

And how in the heck are you TEMPTED with something YOU ALREADY OWN?

Most of the commentary on this is SO kooky my brain goes into complete meltdown!
The Godhead consists of three separate and distinct Persons who each have their own will. They are one in their essence. They are a united One. Echad in the Hebrew. One God in three Persons. Each of whom is God. And the three together are ONE God.

Each member of the trinity is co-equal and co-eternal with the other two. In the datelessness of eternity past the three members of the Godhead planned how they were going to address the problem of mans need of salvation. The first Person of the Trinity, known as God the Father, commissioned the second Person of the trinity who we know as Jesus Christ, to come into the world and go to the Cross in order to redeem man. Jesus agreed to do this. In so doing, He agreed of His own will, to subject Himself in all ways to the will of the Father.

In His deity, Jesus was not temptable. In His humanity, He was temptable. Satan tempted Jesus to use His deity independently of the Fathers will. The plan of God called for Jesus to depend on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit, rather then depending on Himself. Just as all believers are to depend on the Holy Spirits enabling ministry. In Matthew 4:4, Jesus was tempted by Satan to use His deity to turn stones into bread. Something that only God could do.

Had Jesus acted independently of the Father's will, there would have been no salvation. In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was under intense pressure. He was cognizant of what He was about to face, and was deeply troubled by the impending ordeal He was about to face. He could have faltered. But He did not. He chose to remain in the Fathers will and drink the cup He must drink in order to provide salvation.

God the Father is God

God the Holy Spirit is God

Jesus Christ is God

The three together are God.

Since the incarnation when Jesus Christ took upon Himself the form of a man, He is forevermore, the unique Person of the universe. The God-Man. Eternal and infinite God, and true humanity in one Person.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,305,481 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That formula needs to be based on something other than your definition of A and B, don't you think?

Let's Change it up a bit:
A = Spirit
B = Mankind
C = A + B

Now that contradicts nothing.... but doesn't state Jesus is God either....

What a peculiar way to try to prove Jesus is God... I haven't seen that one before!
Not at all. Christ is Christ, however you want to perceive Him, and God is God. That is the logic. They are just names of beings, whether you believe they are divine deity or not, is irrelevant.

God claimed He would come and dwell among His people, as a King, Saviour and servant.

Christ Claimed He was that one who was to come and fulfill the above.

Therefore, Christ is God who claimed He would come and dwell among men. Remember, God forsake Christ on the cross. If He was merely a man, He would not need to do this, for they are separate beings, and not........one, and Him being sin would have no effect on God or His quintessential purity. But it did, so He forsook Him.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,721,082 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
People can cherry pick the verses where Christ is "sent" by the "Father" and "prays" to the Father, but it is contradicted by numerous other passages that directly link Him to being Yaweh. This being the case, the first argument in regards to Him NOT being God in the flesh, is in error. It is obvious that through many verses, it is seen that God comes and dwells among men to usher in the kingdom, as well as John, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews have plainly stated the Fulness of the Godhead, so it must be concluded that even though prior to His death, it is vague to some that He never claimed to be such, even though there are plenty of areas which that can be seen or inferred, wherein the Jews themselves claimed His words blasphemous and only those are for God's usage, and that the second presumption must be the correct one, as is stated throughout the scriptures. If we were to apply logic to this argument, the we see that:

A = God
B = Christ
C = A + B

A said He would dwell among His people B did dwell among His people and claimed deity

Therefore C is the correct answer regardless of the few passages that "appear" to contradict C, even though they are really giving credible foundation to C intimately.
The question then is this... why are those verses there in the first place? Could it be that these are the verses we need to pay closer attention to? Why is the Bible filled with contradictions? Could it be that the Bible contains errors that were written by men who had no understanding of Jesus' true teachings?

Countless Changes Have Been Made in the Copying and Recopying of the Original Manuscripts Left by the Disciples and Apostles of Jesus (http://tinyurl.com/3xj7bhv - broken link)
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,395,075 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Godhead consists of three separate and distinct Persons who each have their own will. They are one in their essence. They are a united One. Echad in the Hebrew. One God in three Persons. Each of whom is God. And the three together are ONE God.

Each member of the trinity is co-equal and co-eternal with the other two. In the datelessness of eternity past the three members of the Godhead planned how they were going to address the problem of mans need of salvation. The first Person of the Trinity, known as God the Father, commissioned the second Person of the trinity who we know as Jesus Christ, to come into the world and go to the Cross in order to redeem man. Jesus agreed to do this. In so doing, He agreed of His own will, to subject Himself in all ways to the will of the Father.

In His deity, Jesus was not temptable. In His humanity, He was temptable. Satan tempted Jesus to use His deity independently of the Fathers will. The plan of God called for Jesus to depend on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit, rather then depending on Himself. Just as all believers are to depend on the Holy Spirits enabling ministry. In Matthew 4:4, Jesus was tempted by Satan to use His deity to turn stones into bread. Something that only God could do.

Had Jesus acted independently of the Father's will, there would have been no salvation. In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was under intense pressure. He was cognizant of what He was about to face, and was deeply troubled by the impending ordeal He was about to face. He could have faltered. But He did not. He chose to remain in the Fathers will and drink the cup He must drink in order to provide salvation.

God the Father is God

God the Holy Spirit is God

Jesus Christ is God

The three together are God.

Since the incarnation when Jesus Christ took upon Himself the form of a man, He is forevermore, the unique Person of the universe. The God-Man. Eternal and infinite God, and true humanity in one Person.
Why does it talk about morning stars being angels and then Jesus is said to be a morning star? KJV Revelation 22:16
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