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Old 05-29-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,307,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
If Jesus was God, then why didn't he just say... pray to me?
If He is God, why did Jesus pray? Prayer was an important part of Jesus' life. Many times in the Gospels, we read that Jesus prayed or went alone to pray apart from the disciples. Why did Jesus pray? Jesus prayed because of His relationship with the Father. In John 17, we find Jesus' high priestly prayer. This prayer is Jesus' intercession for the disciples and all who would believe in Him because of their testimony (John 17:20). In this prayer, we see Jesus' relationship with the Father and the confidence that He has in His Father's perfect provision and plan. Jesus' relationship with the Father was the power that brought salvation to man.

Jesus laid aside His glory and took on the mantle of flesh (
Philippians 2:5-8) and while He wore that mantle, He was obedient to the Father. Why did Jesus pray? Jesus prayed because of His dependence upon and His obedience to the Father. Jesus said, "I can of Mine own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just; because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me" (John 5:30). Therefore, Jesus was in complete submission to the Father.

To understand Jesus as God on earth praying to His Father in heaven, we need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself the form of a man. Please read John 5:19-27, particularly verse 23 where Jesus teaches that the Father sent the Son (also see John 15:10). Jesus did not become the Son of God when He was born in Bethlehem. He has always been the Son of God from eternity past, still is the Son of God, and always will be.

Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Son was given and the Child was born. Jesus was always part of the tri-unity, along with the Holy Spirit. The tri-unity always existed, the Father God, the Son God, and the Spirit God, not three gods, but one God existing as three persons. Jesus taught that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), meaning that He and His Father are of the same substance and the same essence. The Father, Son and Spirit are three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had, and continue to have, an eternal relationship.

When Jesus, the eternal Son of God, took upon Himself sinless humanity He also took on the form of a servant, giving up His heavenly glory (Philippians 2:5-11). As the God-man, He had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8) to His Father as He was tempted by Satan, accused falsely by men, rejected by His people, and eventually crucified. His praying to His heavenly Father was to ask for power (John 11:41-42) and wisdom (Mark 1:35, 6:46). His praying showed His dependence upon His Father in His humanity to carry out His Father's plan of redemption, as evidenced in Christ's high priestly prayer in John 17. His praying demonstrated that He ultimately submitted to His Father's will, which was to go to the cross and pay the penalty (death) for our breaking God's law (Matthew 26:31-46). Of course, He rose bodily from the grave, winning forgiveness and eternal life for those who repent of sin and believe in Him as the Savior.

There is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ became a man. This relationship is depicted in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will, and in doing so, purchased redemption for His children (John 6:38). Christís continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered and kept focused through His prayer life. Christís example of prayer is ours to follow.

Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His Father in heaven. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Fatherís will. Jesus' praying to the Father was a demonstration of His relationship within the Trinity and an example for us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should the follower of Christ today.


Two differnet sites above explained this very well, a question that is asked by many, but easily answered.

If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself?
Why Did Jesus Pray
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,721,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
If He is God, why did Jesus pray?
And because of Jesus' relationship with our Father... what is he telling us? That we can have the same relationship with Him... if we so desire... which I do.

Why did Jesus pray... because He was doing the will of our Father and He knew what it was that was required of him to become divine... he prayed for and received God's Divine Love in his soul... and it is this Love that not only removes sin, but brings to us salvation and immortality... we will not be able to live in Jesus' presence without it when our time comes to move on to the next world... but we can receive it over there... so all is not completely lost... yet.

Jesus' soul was created to long for this Love... as no other soul was created in this way before he was born. Adam and Eve had the privilege of receiving this Love, but they denied it... they were more interested in becoming another God... which they discovered to their detriment wasn't to be. Our Heavenly Father removed the privilege of receiving His Love... so then came the fall... and we know what happened after that... it wasn't until the time that he created Jesus' soul... that this privilege was restored... and to which I'm taking advantage of receiving it before it is taken away again... and it will be taken away again.

Because the writers of the Bible didn't understand what Jesus' mission was all about and they were more interested in filling their pews... they came up with the story about Jesus dying on the cross and the virgin Mary and the devil and eternal hell... all these things were fabricated... sorry to say.

But I have posted snippets of truth in the Bible that should lead any thinking man to question why there are contradictions.

Important That Man Must Search and Find The Truth (http://tinyurl.com/2fjug2c - broken link)
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,307,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
Because the writers of the Bible didn't understand what Jesus' mission was all about and they were more interested in filling their pews... they came up with the story about Jesus dying on the cross and the virgin Mary and the devil and eternal hell... all these things were fabricated... sorry to say.
Heresy.
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Old 05-29-2010, 03:07 PM
 
20,411 posts, read 15,774,335 times
Reputation: 7641
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
You know when I send all the love that's in my heart and soul to my Heavenly Father... He sends me more of His love in return and it's awesome... now if you want to call that false... well, you're really missing out on the most wonderful experience in all the universe.

So what is the deity of Christ? It isn't Jesus... Christ is the principle of God's Divine Love... it's something we can all possess... right now if we so choose. It's what Jesus did and that's how he became a divine man.

2 Thessalonians 3:5: And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ [God's Divine Love].

Ephesians 3:17: That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love.

Ephesians 3:19: And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ezekiel 18:31-32: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spiritÖ For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, said the
Lord God...


I Chronicles 22:19: Now set your heart and soul to seek the Lord your God...

Don't you find it just a wee bit odd that Jesus would tell his followers this:

Luke 11:4: ... When ye pray, say, Our Father, which art in heaven...

If Jesus was God, then why didn't he just say... pray to me?
First, I am not trying to be mean.

You may be sincere in your beliefs, but they are false beliefs. They are completely opposed to God's revelation in His word. Placing your faith in anything other than the Jesus Christ of the Bible will not provide eternal salvation. Your eternal future is at stake. If that is important to you than you had better take the time to seriously consider what the word of God declares.

As I said, your beliefs are not Biblical, and what you believe is not of God. Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. And if you don't come to realize that than you will never have a proper object for your faith. A false Jesus cannot save you.

You ask, 'If Jesus was God why didn't he just say pray to me?'' Prayer is addessed to the Father. However, when Stephen was being stoned to death, he did address his prayer to Jesus. Acts 7:59.

The Bible makes it clear over and over that Jesus Christ is God. But you don't even believe what the Bible says. You say it has only 'snippets of truth.'

The divine love movement is a cult. The Jesus you believe in is not the true Jesus. Your false Jesus has his origins in Satan's cosmic system. He is a Satanic counterfeit whose purpose is to keep you from the real Jesus and from a saving faith.

All this 'divine love' you think you possess will not keep you from the eternal lake of fire. You have been deceived. Again, I am not trying to be mean. I am trying to get you to listen. Do yourself a favor and at least go into these links, I provided. You should also speak to a pastor. It's your future that's at stake.

Jesus Christ

Is Jesus Christ God? - ChristianAnswers.Net

The Deity of Christ
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,344 posts, read 21,048,103 times
Reputation: 10020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Moderator cut: deleted to adhere to copyright on city-data The following is from Internet Biblical Resources These passages are comparisons of Old and New Testament passages which show quite clearly that Jesus is God. It can perhaps be read more easily from the actual site where it is presented in a side by side format. The address has been provided at the bottom of the post.

Here it is:

YWHW and Christ in Isaiah 40-48 and the New Testament
Christ is the same as YHWH ISAIAH NEW TESTAMENT

1. YHWH is the "First and the Last: Christ is the "First and the Last"
"I, YHWH, am the first; And with the last I am He." (Isaiah 41:4) "I am the First and the Last. (Rev. 1:17)
"These things says the First and the Last" (Rev. 2:8)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." (Rev. 22:13)



[b]Here's The website:

Christ is Yahweh (http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/isaiah/yhwhchrist.html - broken link)
I definitely believe that Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YWHW or Yahweh). I just don't believe that Jehovah is Elohim.
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,307,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I definitely believe that Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YWHW or Yahweh). I just don't believe that Jehovah is Elohim.
Elohim is one of three Divine Names by which the Creator is known as He creates. The creation account is probably the most difficult and most enigmatic passages in Scriptures. It starts at the beginning and it doesn't really end.

There are three stages upon which the creation unfolds. The first stage stretches from Gen 1:1 to 2:4. During this time God is known as Elohim. From Gen 2:4 He is known as YHWH Elohim. The third stage starts around the Noah cycle and flows over into the Abraham cycle and beyond. Abraham, after all, was the first to believe and became not only a new creation but also the first of a new continuum of new creations. During this stage God is known as Dabar YHWH, or Word Of God.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Elohim.html

Since Christ is the first and the last, I would have to assume He is also YHWH Elohim.
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,344 posts, read 21,048,103 times
Reputation: 10020
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Elohim is one of three Divine Names by which the Creator is known as He creates. The creation account is probably the most difficult and most enigmatic passages in Scriptures. It starts at the beginning and it doesn't really end.

There are three stages upon which the creation unfolds. The first stage stretches from Gen 1:1 to 2:4. During this time God is known as Elohim. From Gen 2:4 He is known as YHWH Elohim. The third stage starts around the Noah cycle and flows over into the Abraham cycle and beyond. Abraham, after all, was the first to believe and became not only a new creation but also the first of a new continuum of new creations. During this stage God is known as Dabar YHWH, or Word Of God.

The name Elohim: meaning, origin and etymology

Since Christ is the first and the last, I would have to assume He is also YHWH Elohim.
Hmmm. That's interesting. It's not how I see it, but thanks for the info.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,721,965 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First, I am not trying to be mean. You may be sincere in your beliefs, but they are false beliefs. They are completely opposed to God's revelation in His word. Placing your faith in anything other than the Jesus Christ of the Bible will not provide eternal salvation. Your eternal future is at stake. If that is important to you than you had better take the time to seriously consider what the word of God declares.

As I said, your beliefs are not Biblical, and what you believe is not of God. Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. And if you don't come to realize that than you will never have a proper object for your faith. A false Jesus cannot save you. You ask, 'If Jesus was God why didn't he just say pray to me?'' Prayer is addessed to the Father. However, when Stephen was being stoned to death, he did address his prayer to Jesus. Acts 7:59. The Bible makes it clear over and over that Jesus Christ is God. But you don't even believe what the Bible says. You say it has only 'snippets of truth.'

The divine love movement is a cult. The Jesus you believe in is not the true Jesus. Your false Jesus has his origins in Satan's cosmic system. He is a Satanic counterfeit whose purpose is to keep you from the real Jesus and from a saving faith. All this 'divine love' you think you possess will not keep you from the eternal lake of fire. You have been deceived. Again, I am not trying to be mean. I am trying to get you to listen. Do yourself a favor and at least go into these links, I provided. You should also speak to a pastor. It's your future that's at stake.

Jesus Christ Is Jesus Christ God? - ChristianAnswers.Net
The Deity of Christ
I don't think you're being mean... because you found the Bible before you ever heard about Divine Love... it's natural that you are going to cling to what you've learned.

The fact is that it is our soul's condition that determines where we will initially go when we pass over to the spirit world... it is not a belief in Jesus or anyone else. Whatever sins there are on our souls must be removed, either by purifying our natural love, or by receiving God's Divine Love. There is no other way for this to occur. Believing that Jesus died on the cross and that a miraculous supernatural cleansing occurs on our souls just doesn't happen. That's like any of us not taking responsibility for what we do... whether we cause sin to pile up on our soul or someone else does it to us.

Jesus said "narrow is the way and strait is the gate to life everlasting, and few there be that enter therein"... and this narrow way is by our souls being cleansed with God's Divine Love. And the reason that "few there be that enter therein"... is because people and spirits ignore this simple truth.

For the DL movement to be a cult... it needs a leader, which there is none... there isn't even a church... we don't know how many people even follow Jesus' teachings... we only know that they're scattered all over the world... but we can only assume it's a tiny few of us that have chosen this narrow way.

God bless you.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:03 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,410 posts, read 20,126,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Heresy.
Thank God she lives in 2010 , cause goodness knows what would happen to her if this was still the dark ages with her being an heretic .
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Old 05-30-2010, 09:08 AM
 
20,411 posts, read 15,774,335 times
Reputation: 7641
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
I don't think you're being mean... because you found the Bible before you ever heard about Divine Love... it's natural that you are going to cling to what you've learned.

The fact is that it is our soul's condition that determines where we will initially go when we pass over to the spirit world... it is not a belief in Jesus or anyone else. Whatever sins there are on our souls must be removed, either by purifying our natural love, or by receiving God's Divine Love. There is no other way for this to occur. Believing that Jesus died on the cross and that a miraculous supernatural cleansing occurs on our souls just doesn't happen. That's like any of us not taking responsibility for what we do... whether we cause sin to pile up on our soul or someone else does it to us.

Jesus said "narrow is the way and strait is the gate to life everlasting, and few there be that enter therein"... and this narrow way is by our souls being cleansed with God's Divine Love. And the reason that "few there be that enter therein"... is because people and spirits ignore this simple truth.

For the DL movement to be a cult... it needs a leader, which there is none... there isn't even a church... we don't know how many people even follow Jesus' teachings... we only know that they're scattered all over the world... but we can only assume it's a tiny few of us that have chosen this narrow way.

God bless you.
Since the fall of man in the garden, man's point of contact with God is divine justice. Not love. God's love could not guarantee that Adam wouldn't sin. But God's justice was able to provide a means of salvation. And it is divine justice that guarantee's that those who have placed their faith in Christ will never lose their salvation.

God's love doesn't save anyone. God's love motivated Him to provide salvation for man, BUT, and it's a big BUT, it is the justice of God that made salvation possible. It was the judicial act of God the Father in imputing man's sins onto Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for them on the Cross, which made salvation a reality for those who place their faith in Christ.

Because man is born into the world spiritually dead, he is separated from God and helpless to do anything about his condition. For that reason, Christ came into the world to go to the Cross and pay the penalty for man's sins. This He did, thus removing sin as an issue with regard to salvation. Now the issue is, ''What think you of Christ?'' To be eternally saved you must understand the issue concerning salvation. And having understood the issue through Gospel hearing, the issue having been made discernible by God the Holy Spirit, you must place your faith in Christ. You must walk over the line where the barrier of sin used to be. You must understand that Christ alone is the source of your salvation. You must cease from making any effort to save yourself though your own efforts. You must rely totally on Christ. This is what it means to believe in Christ for salvation. If you dont come to a saving faith in Christ, then the alternative is eternity in the place which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). That place described among other things as the lake of fire.

The one who is behind the divine love movement is Satan. Those messages which James Pagett claims to have received from Christ by means of automatic writing, if he was telling the truth, in fact came from demonic spirits. Not from Jesus Christ. Will you believe James Pagett over the word of God?

Acts 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

John 3:14 ''And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15) that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

It's the most important decision you will ever make.
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