U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-31-2010, 04:25 PM
 
20,348 posts, read 15,726,172 times
Reputation: 7487

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What is wrong with this picture?

God created the heavens and earth... God sent his spirit out among men. God's spirit rested on several people during the old and new testaments. God's spirit rested on one particular man who was both son of God and son of man. The God-man sacrificed himself covered in sin. The God part of him escapes unscathed but the human part suffers yet somehow having left the human part because the God part can't be around sin..the God part still suffers with the Human part. Then both of them are reunited upon his death. And to top it all off it was God (the father) having help from God (the HS) who sacrificed himself (Christ) to appease a human debt to God (the father? or collectively God?).


Now if any of that is doctrinally wrong let me know.. but the fact is to a rational mind... it doesn't make any sense in the bigger scheme of things.
Jesus Christ is not God the Father. They are three distinct Persons. It was the humanity of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for man's sins. Not His deity.

In the past, a thread was done in which you simply ignored and rejected every single verse which dealt with the deity of Christ. You have no interest in trying to understand the truth of the matter. You simply reject what you don't like. You reject the reality of heaven, hell, angels-including Satan, the rapture, the Trinity, etc... So don't expect me to indulge you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-31-2010, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 953,192 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Hypostatic union is a theological term which refers to the fact that within the Person of Jesus Christ are two natures. His divine nature or deity, and his human nature. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe. Within the Person of Jesus Christ there is no mixing of the two natures. His deity is always separate and distinct from His human nature. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe.
I know what the Hypostatic Union asserts. What I asked was for you to explain it. Explain how 100% + 100% equals 100%. This is part where the theologian says it's impossible to understand, but that's just the way it is. Why? Not because the Bible says so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The entire Bible reveals the triune nature of Christ. Many of the Scriptures have been given.
This doesn't address my concern, but it does bring up another fallacy. That of a univocal text. The Bible is a collection of writings spread across almost 1000 years that differ greatly in political, social, and theological perspectives. To insist that it can all be synthesized into a single coherent worldview is ludicrous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, God is One in essence and three in Persons. His attributes or essence have already been listed.
Like I said, it's just something that's asserted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The humanity of Christ has a physical body. The deity of Christ and of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit is Spirit. That which is Spirit is not physical. Distinquish between the humanity of Christ and His deity.
This doesn't address my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Man was created as a trichotomous being, with body, soul, and spirit.
This isn't part of the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When Adam fell, he died spiritually. He lost his human spirit.
Also not part of the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When he believed God's promise of a future Messiah, he was born again. His human spirit was restored.
Not part of the Bible.

These are just post hoc doctrines that have been invented to tie lose ends together and fill in gaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thereafter, every member of the human race is born as a dichotomous being, having only body and soul at the point of birth. When any member of the human race believes in Christ for salvation, he is born again. He receives a human spirit. He becomes a trichotomous being. It is the human spirit to which God imputes His perfect righteousness and eternal life. This is regeneraton.
Not in the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All analogies fall short.
Then stop using them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
They have their limitations. They serve only to help in understanding God's triune nature. Again, The three different Persons of the Godhead all have the exact same attributes or essence. God is three in Persons and one in essence.
But what you've said is that it can't be understood, but it's just the way it is,. You're just substantiating my conclusion that these are just post hoc ideologies used to fill in the holes. You can't logically justify it, you can only assert that it has to be that way even though we can't understand it. That's utterly asinine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Immutability refers to the fact that God is Unalterable. He is not capable of nor susceptible to change; therefore, He is absolute stability. His Sovereign decisions, His omniscience and His holiness, as well as His other characterisrics, are eternally the same. Therefore, His Word and His works are immutable. His faithfulness stems from His immutability. That does preclude the fact that Jesus was able to be manifested as a member of the human race. His deity remains separate and distinct from His humanity.
Again, you're just asserting stuff without any kind of logical support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1) Immutability:
a.) Of the Father: James 1:17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.

b.) Of the Son: Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, yes and forever.

c.) Of the Holy Spirit: John 14:16 The Holy Spirit is faithful to indwell. ''And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that He may be with you forever.

God's Omnipresence:

God is everywhere and also personally present. He is not limited by time or space and is both immanent and transcendent. That simply means that God is everywhere at the same time.

a.)Of the Father: Jer. 23:23,24 The Father fills heaven and earth. ''Am I a God who is near,'' declares the LORD, ''And not a God far off? 24) ''Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?'' declares the LORD. ''Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?'' declares the LORD.

b.) Of the Son: The Son promises to be with the believer always. Matt 28:20 ...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'' At the same time, He is in the Father and in the believer. John 14:20. ''In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

c.) Of the Holy Spirit: You cannot escape the presence of the Holy Spirit. Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? 8) If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there.
But Genesis 4:16 says Cain left Yhwh's presence, which shows all of the above can't be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I've just shown from the Scriptures regarding two of the characteristics of His essence, all three Persons of the Godhead have the exact same essence.
No, it's not in the scriptures. You've just nakedly asserted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each possess in equal amounts, the exact same Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutabiltiy, and Veracity.
None of this is anywhere in the scriptures, which actually explain that Christ is inferior to God. In order to assert otherwise you have to decide to commit yourself to the hermeneutic circle, which is a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As already explained, the humanity of Christ is separate and distinct from His deity.
Not in the Bible. This is another ideology secondarily developed from the doctrine of homoousios, which is also not in the Bible. It developed as a way to respond to accusations of polytheism within the Trinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Within the person of Jesus Christ are two different natures. His divine nature which is His deity, and His human nature. The characteristics of His two natures never mix. They remain separate and distinct one from the other. Jesus Christ is not half-god and half-man. He is the God-man. The unique Person of the universe.
And, of course, you can't logically explain how this works, you can only say that that's the way it is. This is my criticism of your assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I said. The Scriptures themselves clearly show the triune nature of God.
And as I showed you (as opposed to just saying), the Bible does no such thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I simply took it from the Scripture4all website. It is sufficient.
No it's not. It's completely wrong. There's no no ayin or aleph at the beginning of the word shema, nor is there an /o/ class vowel on the end. The /s/ consonant in Israel is not a shin, it's a sin. There's also a tsere following the qamets. I don't even know what ieue is supposed to be. It certainly has nothing to do with the Tetragrammaton. alei-nu also starts with the wrong vowel, is missing an /o/ vowel and an /h/. The last word is also not achd, but ehad. Whoever wrote that doesn't know a lick of Hebrew, and that you just regurgitated it indiscriminately shows you know even less. Don't bother with Hebrew if you're just going to screw it all up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The myths and mythology of man have nothing to do with the Biblical use of the term.
You couldn't be more wrong. Comparative Semitics is responsible for the vast majority of historical grammar and is the primary reason we understand the literary, lexical, and grammatical contexts within which these terms operate. To insist that Biblical Hebrew is somehow grammatically privileged or superior is just plain nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Strong's is for people who don't know Greek and Hebrew, but neither of these links contributes anything to this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it absolutely does not. I've explained why. You can engage that explanation if you want, but just burping up some uninformed website doesn't suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
One of Jesus Christs pre-incarnation appearances was as the angel of the Lord. Hos 12:4-5 is a reference to Jesus Christ. It was Jesus Christ who wrestled with Jacob. Those interested can simply research 'the angel of the Lord.'
It doesn't say anything about the "angel of the Lord" in those texts. My masters thesis deals quite extensively with the tradition of the angel of the Lord. I'm happy to send it along to anyone who would like to research the topic, as Mike suggests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I Cor 8:5 simply refers to the fact that in ancient Israel, human rulers and authorities were called gods.
That's not true at all. Paul refers to gods and lords which are in heaven and on earth. Additionally, human rulers and authorities were not called gods. The two times they were (Exod 7:1; Psalm 45) are strikingly rhetorical and explicitly metaphorical. No other use of the word for "god" appears in reference to a mortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Psalm 97:7 refers to idols, false gods.
No it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about the gods being idols, and it would be ridiculous for the scriptures to exalt God by commanding non-existent beings to bow down to him. That would be like saying God is so great all my GI Joe action figures cowered before him. How awe inspiring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ is not the Father. He is a separate Person of the Godhead. It is Jesus Christ who carried out the actual creation of all that has been created. As John 1 makes perfectly clear.
So Jesus Christ created the Father?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Psalm 45:6 is a Messianic Psalm. Both Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8-9 are a reference to Jesus Christ.
No, Psalm 45 is very clearly a reference to king David.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Here is the entire Hebrews passage.

Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4) having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5) For to which of the angels did He ever say, ''Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten thee?''? And again, ''I will be a Father to Him, And He shall be a Son to Me?'' 6) And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ''And let all the angels of GOd worship Him.''7) And of the angels He says, ''Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.''8) But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. ''Thou shast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed thee.

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the anointed one.
I never said he wasn't. You clearly missed my point entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Read the entire passage of Hebrews 1:1-14. It is referring to angels. For instance, verse 13, which says, But to which of the angels has He ever said, ''Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.
Again, you missed my point entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Regarding the Septuagint refer to this resource.

The Septuagint (http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/lxx.asp - broken link)
I don't need to refer to any resource you could possibly produce on the Septuagint, and this doesn't respond to my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It (John 1:1) says, ''In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things came into being by Him (Jesus Christ), and apart from Him nothing came into being.

Jesus Christ is God. Plainly stated. Not God the Father, but God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.
You obviously don't know what principles are at work in the Greek, and I can explain it if you like, but I really don't think you care about anything but promulgating your dogmas, irrespective of the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes, it does.
No, it absolutely does not, and I explained exactly why. What world do you think you live in that a suitable response to an academic critique of a position is "Yes, it does"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Holy Spirit is identified as a separate Person from the Father and the Son.

2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

In Acts 5:3 Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit. You don't lie to an attribute or a force. You lie to a Person. Peter identifies the Holy Spirit as God. Acts 5:3,4.
Your comment about Acts 5:3 is perfectly reasonable, but Greek personal pronouns don't bear at all on the question. That was my criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I said earlier, in ancient Israel men in authority, and idols were called gods. But not God.
And as I said earlier, that's not true. I've been over this, and I provided several links to discussions of exactly that concern.

Additionally, your assertion is quite explicitly begging the question. You simply presuppose that "god" cannot refer to an ontological deity and then make up an explanation for every attestation of the word. Unfortunately for you, that tactic simply fails to account for the vast majority of the uses of the word אלהים. You can't defend your assertion, you can only assert that it's true in spite of the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The entirety of the Scriptures speak of the triune nature of God.
This does not address my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Open your eyes you nay sayers. Open yours eyes and your understanding. God is one in essence and three in Persons.
Your answers display a gross ignorance of proper exegetical methodologies and a shocking degree of contempt for the very logical and academic principles that allow you to read the scriptures at all. You primarily just bark "Nu-uh!" at me without so much as engaging a word of my evidence, and not a single one of your assertions is backed up by anything approximating logical argumentation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-31-2010, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 953,192 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Daniell,

With all respects sir, it takes more than a full body of research work to understand the mystery of the Godhead. And that goes for everyone. The whole world, nobody knows God. Few worship him in Spirit and in truth and if he has not taught you, your earthly wisdom cannot understand his nature.

Let me take you back to Genesis when he created man. Who were the "us" in "Let us make man in our own image"? In the bible it is clear that there is God the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You're retrojecting New Testament ideologies into a previous literary tradition that did not recognize them. The Bible is a not a single worldview. It is numerous worldviews compiled together centuries after the fact. The "us" is the other gods of the divine council. Throughout Syro-Palestinian literature the creation of humanity was undertaken after deliberation within that divine council.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
The Holy Spirit is equally the Father, so also the son is a form of the Father. Remember when he was asked by Philip "shew us the Father.." and his answer shows that he was one with his Father. That validates the equation: 1+1+1=1.
I disagree. John 17 explains that those who are sanctified will become one with the Father just as Jesus is one with the Father. Does this mean all saved humans will become ontologically one with the Father? Of course not. That idea simply did not exist prior to the 4th century CE, and there's no way to find it in any texts prior to that time period without reading it into texts where it was not found. When Christ said that those who saw him had seen the Father he was appealing to a very common ancient idea that representatives of authority figures represented their superiors in very deed. In the Ugaritic texts we have several examples of messengers being addressed by the names and titles of their superiors. They responded to the representatives as if they were the authorities, and their message was treated as if it had come personally from the authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
For better understanding Read Mathew 17:5. Jesus was a form of God having been born of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is his Father, so he is a form of his Father.
But God himself has his own form independent of Christ. Stephen saw it. The Old Testament makes frequent reference to God's own body and to people seeing him. It's simply begging the question to insist, "Oh, that's just Christ appearing to people." There's no reason to accept that assertion unless you simply preclude the possibility that God was seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
The Godhead can be likened to the human being. As a human you consist of water, blood and spirit. We can see water and blood, but we cannot see the spirit. The spirit is the part of you that resembles God, who is in all of us. With the Godhead you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three are one in the spirit, but can separately manifest on earth and in heaven.
A little allusion to the Comma Johanneum, a late interpolation in the Johannine literature. As I also stated above, the Bible state unequivocally numerous times that God indeed has been seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
The Son who is also God incarnated as Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. The Holy Spirit had also manifested as a dove in Jesusí baptism. The Spirit is the power who can manifest as the Son or the Father and the Spirit is God.

The Spirit who caused the Son to manifest have now also caused the Father to manifest. The Spirit does everything. The gift of the spirit (Holy Ghost power) is the power behind all believers.

When the Spirit of God was moving about in the water , who was in existence? There exist a fussion or unity of the Father and Son in the Holy Spirit, so to that extent, they are one but again they are functionally separate. The Father is greater than the Son, but they are one.

Back to our human existence. To understand the Godhead, try and understand a human being first.

Your behaviour, your nature is actually decided from your spirit. When humans die, the spirit leaves the body, unnoticed by anyone. That is why it is said that no one can see God since no one can see the Spirit. But your action as a human is done by your body. An observer would hold your physical being responsible, but in actual fact your Spirit decides your action. As a human, your flesh and your Spirit are seen as one but in reality function differently. For instance, when you are about to hate another human, your Spirit may be against it but because you refuse to listen to your Spirit, your flesh goes ahead and activate hatred towards a fellow man. Your Spirit has functioned one way, your head and body has functioned another way. You may slap the man for instance, and if we analyse it carefully three parts of your existence were involved:

a) You Spirit
b) Your brain
c) Your hand

These 3 parts are all you! The difference between man and the Godhead is that the Godhead can materialize and dematerialize his own attributes at will, but we cannot.

God is a Spirit John 4:24. That spirit of God is called the Holy Spirit who is God who is the Father and who also has a begotten Son. In summary, the ff equation applies

Father = Holy Spirit=God
Son = God

but,

Son is a form of the Father!

similarly using our human example

You = your Spirit = your personality

your brain= a part of you (water & blood)

your hand = a part of you (water & blood)

Let me stop so far!
But these analogies fail since they divide the substance. These are also all Christian ideologies developed well after the Bible was completed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-31-2010, 10:40 PM
 
20,348 posts, read 15,726,172 times
Reputation: 7487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
I know what the Hypostatic Union asserts. What I asked was for you to explain it. Explain how 100% + 100% equals 100%. This is part where the theologian says it's impossible to understand, but that's just the way it is. Why? Not because the Bible says so.
I did explain the hypostatic union. You don't like the idea that it can't be fully understood by man's finite mind. Therefore you reject it.

The following two links are for whoever wants some information on the hypostatic union. If your not interested, then ignore them.

What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?

Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


Quote:
This doesn't address my concern, but it does bring up another fallacy. That of a univocal text. The Bible is a collection of writings spread across almost 1000 years that differ greatly in political, social, and theological perspectives. To insist that it can all be synthesized into a single coherent worldview is ludicrous.
Actually, it is more like 1500 or1600 hundred years. And it is the complete and connected thought of God with regard to what He desired to communicate to man.

You show that you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Quote:
Like I said, it's just something that's asserted.



This doesn't address my concerns.



This isn't part of the Bible.



Also not part of the Bible.



Not part of the Bible.

These are just post hoc doctrines that have been invented to tie lose ends together and fill in gaps.



Not in the Bible.
None of the above objections to what I said need be addressed. Readers may simply refer back to what I said.





Quote:
But what you've said is that it can't be understood, but it's just the way it is,. You're just substantiating my conclusion that these are just post hoc ideologies used to fill in the holes. You can't logically justify it, you can only assert that it has to be that way even though we can't understand it. That's utterly asinine.
To reject something that pertains to God because the infinite can't be understood by the finite human mind is arrogant.

Quote:
Again, you're just asserting stuff without any kind of logical support.
Here you are rejecting the immutability of God. I have given Scripture references for each of the three Persons of the Godhead that substantiates His immutability.

Quote:
But Genesis 4:16 says Cain left Yhwh's presence, which shows all of the above can't be correct.
Jonah 1:3, Job 1:12 and 2:7 also say that that Jonah and Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. It doesn't mean that they literally went someplace where the Lord isn't.

Genesis 4:16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.

Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

No one can literally escape from the presence of the Lord as the passages that I provided (now shown below) make clear. But YOU want to dismiss them by saying they can't be correct.

God's Omnipresence:

God is everywhere and also personally present. He is not limited by time or space and is both immanent and transcendent. That simply means that God is everywhere at the same time.

a.)Of the Father: Jer. 23:23,24 The Father fills heaven and earth. ''Am I a God who is near,'' declares the LORD, ''And not a God far off? 24) ''Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?'' declares the LORD. ''Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?'' declares the LORD.

b.) Of the Son: The Son promises to be with the believer always. Matt 28:20 ...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'' At the same time, He is in the Father and in the believer. John 14:20. ''In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

c.) Of the Holy Spirit: You cannot escape the presence of the Holy Spirit. Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? 8) If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there.


God is everywhere simultaneously, and yet He is free to be local. He usually manifested Himself in some way when communicating with man. In Satan's case, Satan had gone up into the throneroom of God in Job 1:12 and 2:7. When he left to go back to the earth, he was said to have gone out from the presence of the Lord.


Quote:
No, it's not in the scriptures. You've just nakedly asserted it.
I just showed you the Scriptures with regard to God's immutability and omnipresence. I could show you the Scriptures for the rest of His attributes as well, but I'll just show one more of His attributes. His Veracity.

God's Veracity (Truth):

Of the Father: John 7:28 Jesus speaking: ''You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. John 17:3 ''And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

Of the Son: John 14:6 Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one vomes to the Father but through Me.

Of the Holy Spirit: 1 John 5:7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

I have now shown Scripture for three of God's attributes. The scriptures exist for the other seven of God's attributes as well. But I am not going to take the time to list them.


Quote:
None of this is anywhere in the scriptures, which actually explain that Christ is inferior to God. In order to assert otherwise you have to decide to commit yourself to the hermeneutic circle, which is a logical fallacy.
Again, I have already shown Scripture for three of God's attributes.

Quote:
Not in the Bible. This is another ideology secondarily developed from the doctrine of homoousios, which is also not in the Bible. It developed as a way to respond to accusations of polytheism within the Trinity.
Yes, it is. The Bible makes it quite clear that the deity of Christ, and His humanity are separate and distinct. Just one example is in Matthew 4:4 where the humanity of Jesus is fasting and is weak and Satan is tempting Jesus to use His deity to turn stones into bread. Phil 2:6-8 make it clear that Jesus Christ existing in the form of God was made in the likeness of man.


Quote:
And, of course, you can't logically explain how this works, you can only say that that's the way it is. This is my criticism of your assertion.
Again, it is not necessary for the finite mind of man to be able to understand the things that God does.

I will refer readers to the two links shown above regarding the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ.


Quote:
And as I showed you (as opposed to just saying), the Bible does no such thing.
Fella, I've just posted two threads full of Scripture which show that God is triune.

Quote:
No it's not. It's completely wrong. There's no no ayin or aleph at the beginning of the word shema, nor is there an /o/ class vowel on the end. The /s/ consonant in Israel is not a shin, it's a sin. There's also a tsere following the qamets. I don't even know what ieue is supposed to be. It certainly has nothing to do with the Tetragrammaton. alei-nu also starts with the wrong vowel, is missing an /o/ vowel and an /h/. The last word is also not achd, but ehad. Whoever wrote that doesn't know a lick of Hebrew, and that you just regurgitated it indiscriminately shows you know even less. Don't bother with Hebrew if you're just going to screw it all up.
Yes, it is Echad. And as I said in the original post, anti-trinitarians will deny that Echad means a unified one.

Trinity: Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

Quote:
You couldn't be more wrong. Comparative Semitics is responsible for the vast majority of historical grammar and is the primary reason we understand the literary, lexical, and grammatical contexts within which these terms operate. To insist that Biblical Hebrew is somehow grammatically privileged or superior is just plain nonsense.
The myths and mythologies of man have nothing to do with the reality of the Bible.

When The Bible uses the word Elohim it refers to the fact that God is 3 Pesons but ONE God. Not three Gods.




Quote:
Strong's is for people who don't know Greek and Hebrew, but neither of these links contributes anything to this discussion.
Strong's is an excellent resource. And I might have chosen better links. I was in a hurry. These are better:

The Elohim

Where Does Elohim Come From?



Quote:
It doesn't say anything about the "angel of the Lord" in those texts. My masters thesis deals quite extensively with the tradition of the angel of the Lord. I'm happy to send it along to anyone who would like to research the topic, as Mike suggests.
Your masters hardly puts you in a position to contradict men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary. Or someone like R. B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church for over 50 years, and had a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew by the time he graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary.

Regarding the angel of the Lord, readers can check these:

Who is the angel of the Lord?

Angel of the LORD

10 - Jacob Wrestles With God - 15 Sermon Series on Life of Jacob, by Pastor Ron Thomas. GospelWeb.net


Quote:
That's not true at all. Paul refers to gods and lords which are in heaven and on earth. Additionally, human rulers and authorities were not called gods. The two times they were (Exod 7:1; Psalm 45) are strikingly rhetorical and explicitly metaphorical. No other use of the word for "god" appears in reference to a mortal.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 8:5, I was in a hurry and didn't bother to look at it.

The use of the word gods in 1 Cor 8:5, refers to the fact that the pagans had those whom they called ''gods'', for instance, Dagon and Baal in David's day. Anything that is placed before God in one's heart may be said to be a god. 2 Tim 3:2-4.


Human rulers, judges were indeed sometimes referred to as gods.

In Exodus 21:6 and 22:8; Psalms 82:1 and 82:6, judges are referred to as gods- Elohim.

Quote:
No it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about the gods being idols, and it would be ridiculous for the scriptures to exalt God by commanding non-existent beings to bow down to him. That would be like saying God is so great all my GI Joe action figures cowered before him. How awe inspiring.
You're referring to Psalms 97:7. Here it is. ''Confounded be all those who serve carved images, who boast themselves of idols; worship Him, all ye gods.

The passage is in reference to those involved in idol worship.

Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols--worship him, all you gods!

Quote:
So Jesus Christ created the Father?
You're being foolish. All three members of the Godheas have co-existed eternally. There never was a time when the Persons of the Godhead didn't exist.

Quote:
No, Psalm 45 is very clearly a reference to king David.
Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Quote:
I never said he wasn't. You clearly missed my point entirely.
No I didn't. Both Psalm 45 and Hebrews 1:8-9 refer to Jesus Christ.

Here is the entire Hebrews passage.

Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4) having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5) For to which of the angels did He ever say, ''Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten thee?''? And again, ''I will be a Father to Him, And He shall be a Son to Me?'' 6) And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ''And let all the angels of GOd worship Him.''7) And of the angels He says, ''Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.''8) But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. ''Thou shast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed thee.

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the anointed one.


Quote:
You obviously don't know what principles are at work in the Greek, and I can explain it if you like, but I really don't think you care about anything but promulgating your dogmas, irrespective of the facts.
You would have others think that John 1:1 doesn't say the Jesus Christ is the Word and that the Word was God and that the Word was with God? You are again being foolish.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Quote:
No, it absolutely does not, and I explained exactly why. What world do you think you live in that a suitable response to an academic critique of a position is "Yes, it does"?

Your comment about Acts 5:3 is perfectly reasonable, but Greek personal pronouns don't bear at all on the question. That was my criticism.
Your criticism is meaningless. The Holy Spirit is clearly shown to be a Person, and the fact that He is spoken of with personal pronouns demonstrates that.

Quote:
And as I said earlier, that's not true. I've been over this, and I provided several links to discussions of exactly that concern.
And as I said earlier, Yes it is true. And here are some passages that demonstrate it. In these passages, human rulers are referred to as gods-Elohim. Exodus 21:6; Exodus 22:8; Psalm 82:1 and Psalm 82:6.


Quote:
Additionally, your assertion is quite explicitly begging the question. You simply presuppose that "god" cannot refer to an ontological deity and then make up an explanation for every attestation of the word. Unfortunately for you, that tactic simply fails to account for the vast majority of the uses of the word אלהים. You can't defend your assertion, you can only assert that it's true in spite of the facts.
Whenever the word God is used, it is used either for the one true God, or for false gods-idols, or for human rulers.



Your answers display a gross ignorance of proper exegetical methodologies and a shocking degree of contempt for the very logical and academic principles that allow you to read the scriptures at all. You primarily just bark "Nu-uh!" at me without so much as engaging a word of my evidence, and not a single one of your assertions is backed up by anything approximating logical argumentation.[/quote]


Fella, you haven't said one thing that is correct. You sound like you're trying to get a seat on the Jesus Seminar. They seek to discredit fundamental Christianity, and you would be right at home with them.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-31-2010 at 11:36 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-31-2010, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God never divided Himself. He has always existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Exactly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-31-2010, 11:50 PM
 
20,348 posts, read 15,726,172 times
Reputation: 7487
2 John 1:7

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2010, 12:58 AM
 
3,585 posts, read 464,829 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
2 John 1:7

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Jesus Christ - the Son of God did come in the flesh
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2010, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
Reputation: 420
Mike, I commend you on fighting the good fight.

Jesus Christ, being both human and divine, is fitted to be the true Messiah and Saviour of men.
In this, as in every action and character, He is shown to be the "wisdom and power of God unto salvation.."

As human, He reaches down to our natures, sympathizes with us, shows us that God knows all of our feelings and weaknesses, our sorrows and temptations, sees our sins, this brings God near to us, who otherwise could not realize the Mighty God, Infinite and Eternal, as a Father and Friend.

He is divine, in order that He may be an all powerful, all loving Saviour, able and willing to defend us from every enemy, to subdue all temptations, to deliver us from all sin, and to bring each of His people personally, and the whole corporate church, into complete and final victory over the sin that had bound us to die the death we so deserve.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2010, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Mike, I commend you on fighting the good fight.

Jesus Christ, being both human and divine, is fitted to be the true Messiah and Saviour of men.
In this, as in every action and character, He is shown to be the "wisdom and power of God unto salvation.."

As human, He reaches down to our natures, sympathizes with us, shows us that God knows all of our feelings and weaknesses, our sorrows and temptations, sees our sins, this brings God near to us, who otherwise could not realize the Mighty God, Infinite and Eternal, as a Father and Friend.

He is divine, in order that He may be an all powerful, all loving Saviour, able and willing to defend us from every enemy, to subdue all temptations, to deliver us from all sin, and to bring each of His people personally, and the whole corporate church, into complete and final victory over the sin that had bound us to die the death we so deserve.
God coulda done that without putting himself in a man's body. Really I wonder where you find the need for God to come to earth to sacrifice himself.

Also, where does Jesus' personality fit in? Did Jesus have a fave food? Did Jesus like blue or red? Or was it just a body to be used by God and nothing more?

And IF Jesus had a personality separate from God then who was controlling the body? God or Jesus the man?

See... this is how most children begin reasoning out the whole Santa thing... Why come down the chimney... if he is magic why not just zap the presents to the kids? Then they inevitably discard the belief in Santa.

This is how we should test things. If they don't make sense... ask questions. When finally your questions out number the answers you really have to just discard the belief.

So to sum up:

1. Why was it necessary for God to become human? (and to die as a human - even though God didn't really die )

2. Did Jesus have a separate personality, like us, and if not... then there really wasn't a Jesus... just God in a flesh costume. And if he did.... Who controlled the body? God or Jesus? Was it ultimately Jesus' choice to do the will of God or was it God doing his own will but pretending to be human?

3. What would be the difference in outcome if Jesus had been HUMAN with human capabilities just like you and me... What difference would there be if Jesus simply allowed God to make his decisions for him through the HS?

4. If the outcome is not any different - IMO it isn't - then why the convoluted doctrine of the trinity? IOW what does the trinity explain exactly? How do we become more knowledgeable about God by believing in the trinity? Seems to me most people are confused about it and the excuse is that it is not understood by humans.

5. That's it... for now.

But each of these things create more questions in my mind. So as a (usually) rational person, I cannot fathom why anyone would believe in a doctrine that serves no purpose. If anything it DECREASES understanding as it is not understandable! IMHO of course.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2010, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ is not God the Father. They are three distinct Persons. It was the humanity of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for man's sins. Not His deity.
Exactly! That is what I am saying. The humanity of Jesus paid the penalty. So God didn't? This is what really trips up trinitarians. Jesus said, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" And because all the sins were laid on the humanity of Jesus, you are saying God (the father) was not with him at that time. So really God (the father) did not do anything but forsake him. Did God (the Holy Spirit) also forsake him? So what part of Jesus was God on the cross?

Did Jesus have a personality or did God just control him until that moment on the cross? Then he had to do the suffer and die part? If God was controlling Jesus during his ministry does that mean that Jesus was only sinless because he was God? Then we can't ever achieve true sinless-ness right?

I could go on and on...

Quote:
In the past, a thread was done in which you simply ignored and rejected every single verse which dealt with the deity of Christ. You have no interest in trying to understand the truth of the matter. You simply reject what you don't like. You reject the reality of heaven, hell, angels-including Satan, the rapture, the Trinity, etc... So don't expect me to indulge you.
Please don't feel as if you are indulging ME but your readers. Perhaps they are having the same problems with the same questions. They may seem silly to you but some of us are wondering these things... at least I think I'm not the only one!

Some of your readers don't believe in satan, the rapture, trinity, heaven, hell, angels...etc. But if you can answer these "silly" questions perhaps we would believe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top