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Old 06-01-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,778 posts, read 47,673,471 times
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God's Word is very clear about many things [how we should live, and what sins are], and including God's nature and how we should worship Him.

And yet this doctrine is absent.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Way to rebut!

I actually suggested that he is more than capable of taking a normal human being (as he is said to have done in the OT) and bringing salvation through that normal human being. So I am saying that you limit God by claiming he HAD to come down to earth in a human body.

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.

Why did God need to come to earth in a human body?
These were already answered.

Quote:
To start... or you can simply reply to my previous post in full.

You can answer or not.. but it is very telling that trinitarians are not able to answer even the most basic question.
All your questions have been answered Kat. Because you can't accept or understand them are out of our hands. Hence...election.
It is very clear as to why God came in the flesh.
Read the OT scriptures again.

However, I will answer your pending question once again, as every else has answered....why did God have to come in the flesh?

You may not like the answer, but it is truth. And it is the main one.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God in the flesh, came into the world, never sinned, and became the perfect sacrifice to pay the death penalty that every person on earth deserved. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came here in that frail nature, to "undo" what Adam had done.

Man is a sinner. That is why he sins. He must sin. He is a bondservant. He was born that way, and cannot help it, much in the same way that a baby from a mother addicted to crack cocaine is born addicted to crack cocaine, when he has never personally used it.

It is not fair, he was just born that way.

"For all have sinned..and come short of the glory of God..." Romans 3:23

"The wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

The Bible says that,

"...the life of the flesh is in the blood, therefore have I given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls..." Leviticus 17:11

In order for the death penalty to be satisfied there had to be a blood sacrifice...and in order for that sacrifice to be able to save others it had to be innocent itself; otherwise its blood would only pay the penalty for its own transgressions.
Therefore it had to be sinless blood, if it could save anyone.

The only man ever born that did not come from Adam was Jesus of Nazareth the Christ of God. His mother was a woman, but his Father was God and not a man. Therefore He was fully human, but His spirit was God, and came from the Father (God, not Adam), and He was not under the curse of Adam. As such there was no sin in Him (1 John 3:5), although He had the opportunity to sin, as He was,

"tempted in every way like as we are" Hebrews 4:15

So, He became the perfect sacrifice. He died, was buried, and rose from the grave on the third day, as it was written in the scriptures for centuries before he came to earth.

After His resurrection, He showed Himself alive to His disciples, and commanded them to preach this gospel all over the world, which they did and are still doing. They were taught of the Lord to preach that he was risen from the dead incorruptible (that means He can never die again), and that whosoever believes on him can have remission (pardon, forgiveness) of sins and a resurrection into the kingdom of God through his name Acts 10:43, 13:38,39

The apostles of Jesus Christ preached that we should become saved by:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call…Save yourselves from this untoward (unruly; wicked; out of control) generation."
Acts 2:38-40

On the first day of the New Testament, Peter, preached that message, and it is the same message that all of the other apostles preached from that time, and it is still the only message that will save the sinner from the power of darkness, so that he can live a holy life in covenant with God Almighty and enter into His glorious kingdom.

When we repent, we die; because we make the decision not to live for ourselves any longer, but rather for Jesus in obedience to his word.

Then, when we are baptized, we become "buried with him in baptism" Colossians 2:12; and therein we are "risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, which hath raised him from the dead" Colossians 2:12 by receiving His Spirit, the Holy Ghost, who conceived Him.

God.

So, just as Jesus went through death, burial, and resurrection for us, we also experience death, burial, and resurrection through obedience to the gospel his apostles preached, so that we become “new creatures in Christ Jesus“, risen again to walk in newness of life.

That is the gospel of Christ, which the apostle Paul said is,

"the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" Romans 1:16, 17

God came to us.
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,606,904 times
Reputation: 29967
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
ILNC, have you ever taken the time to read church history. Are you even aware of HOW the doctrine of the trinity came to be? Have you ever heard of Arius and Athanasius and how their theological war brought about said doctrine (it existed before them in arguuments like this thread and countless others, but they took it to another level)? May I suggest reading up on these things (if you dare) just so you would be educated on what REALLY happened. Just to be fair.
I have God's own Word to teach me all I need to know about the Trinity and everything else.
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,730,038 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I have God's own Word to teach me all I need to know about the Trinity and everything else.
Ah my dear ILNC. You did NOT disappoint me with your answer at all. Isn't that too narrow a perspective to live by though?
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,606,904 times
Reputation: 29967
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ah my dear ILNC. You did NOT disappoint me with your answer at all. Isn't that too narrow a perspective to live by though?
Only a narrow minded person would say that living by the Bible is narrow minded
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ah my dear ILNC. You did NOT disappoint me with your answer at all. Isn't that too narrow a perspective to live by though?
It shouldn't disappoint or affect you in the least, because you are reprobate. The one with the narrow perspective, is you.
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
These were already answered.
Ok I will take your word for it.

Quote:
All your questions have been answered Kat. Because you can't accept or understand them are out of our hands. Hence...election.
It is very clear as to why God came in the flesh.
Read the OT scriptures again.
I have read the OT and the beliefs of the religion stemming solely from the OT. Nothing in it states that God came in the flesh. You say it is very clear but in reality it is not and most if not all trinitarians will admit this. I don't know why you think it is so clear. Except that you have a misconception about who God is... I AM.

Quote:
However, I will answer your pending question once again, as every else has answered....why did God have to come in the flesh?

You may not like the answer, but it is truth. And it is the main one.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God in the flesh, came into the world, never sinned, and became the perfect sacrifice to pay the death penalty that every person on earth deserved. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came here in that frail nature, to "undo" what Adam had done.
So you are saying that God became the perfect sacrifice but really God can't sin so he didn't really do anything amazing in being sinless. Also, Jesus was forsaken by God at the cross. So it was JESUS the human who suffered and died ALONE on the cross. So here we have that God did not sin (because he can't) and Jesus died ALONE on the Cross so God didn't sacrifice himself at all. How would God NOT dying on the cross "undo" what Adam had done?

Quote:
Man is a sinner. That is why he sins. He must sin. He is a bondservant. He was born that way, and cannot help it, much in the same way that a baby from a mother addicted to crack cocaine is born addicted to crack cocaine, when he has never personally used it.

It is not fair, he was just born that way.
Hmmm.. he is born a sinner. Therefore JESUS was born a sinner! ALL have sinned... except God himself yet God didn't die on the cross.. JESUS the man (born a sinner) did.

Quote:
"For all have sinned..and come short of the glory of God..." Romans 3:23

"The wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

The Bible says that,

"...the life of the flesh is in the blood, therefore have I given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls..." Leviticus 17:11

In order for the death penalty to be satisfied there had to be a blood sacrifice...and in order for that sacrifice to be able to save others it had to be innocent itself; otherwise its blood would only pay the penalty for its own transgressions.
Yet the OT states that the blood sacrifices were not desired by him!

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Psalm 51:16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

Jeremiah 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

So why did God need to sacrifice a human? or himself?

Now are you saying that he does, in fact, NEED sacrifices to do away with sin? Clearly that is not taught in the bible.

Quote:
Therefore it had to be sinless blood, if it could save anyone.
Sacrifice doesn't save anyone!

In fact, (1 Samuel 15:22 )Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams."

It was Jesus' obedience that was the sacrifice. He sacrificed his carnal nature to obey the LORD and was killed for it by those who would rather just sacrifice animals rather than be obedient.

Quote:
The only man ever born that did not come from Adam was Jesus of Nazareth the Christ of God. His mother was a woman, but his Father was God and not a man.
I can't believe people still believe this rubbish!

Quote:
Therefore He was fully human, but His spirit was God, and came from the Father (God, not Adam), and He was not under the curse of Adam. As such there was no sin in Him (1 John 3:5), although He had the opportunity to sin, as He was,
God can't sin.. first of all so if Jesus was God he would NEVER have sinned nor been tempted to sin. Also... unless God has chromosomes then Jesus did indeed have a human father and was of Adam.

Quote:
"tempted in every way like as we are" Hebrews 4:15
BECAUSE he was human! God cannot be tempted.
James 1:13 'When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;'


Quote:
The apostles of Jesus Christ preached that we should become saved by:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call…Save yourselves from this untoward (unruly; wicked; out of control) generation."
Acts 2:38-40
Yeah... both you and I know that was directed towards that generation, so your point is moot.

Quote:
On the first day of the New Testament, Peter, preached that message, and it is the same message that all of the other apostles preached from that time, and it is still the only message that will save the sinner from the power of darkness, so that he can live a holy life in covenant with God Almighty and enter into His glorious kingdom.

When we repent, we die; because we make the decision not to live for ourselves any longer, but rather for Jesus in obedience to his word.
Exactly why it is better to obey than to sacrifice. Jesus obeyed and that is what ultimately saved us. He is a light in the darkness.

Your premise falls flat. BUT if you want to engage in the same error as that "untoward generation" then that is your choice. I will not be enslaved in the musings of primitive man.

Jesus wasn't sacrificed to God. Neither was God sacrificed to God. Jesus was obedient and showed us how to be obedient UNTO DEATH. But then you won't actually respond to any of this so.....
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,730,038 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It shouldn't disappoint or affect you in the least, because you are reprobate. The one with the narrow perspective, is you.
Thanks for the kind words. Sounds...really...er...dirty!

And here I was thinking I was a real broad thinker whose opinions are not confined to 66 books from two millenia ago. How silly of me.
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:37 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,215,590 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
God's Word is very clear about many things [how we should live, and what sins are], and including God's nature and how we should worship Him.

And yet this doctrine is absent.
Do you believe that the scriptures teach the trinity Beekeeper?
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,390,352 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
My masters thesis deals quite extensively with the tradition of the angel of the Lord. I'm happy to send it along to anyone who would like to research the topic, as Mike suggests.
I wouldn't mind taking a look at it.
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