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Old 05-31-2010, 11:25 AM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,109,329 times
Reputation: 1470

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus claimed to be:

The son of God
The son of Man
The Messiah

Yet never claimed to be God... interesting. I have tried to show you your error and now you are just claiming more absurdities!

If you want to believe something that is not found in the bible I guess that is your right... but to tell others that they are not saved if they don't believe as you do is presumptuous and arrogant! IMO.
It is arrogant for anyone to say who is or is not saved. But, again, many religions teach that if you are not under their umbrella of their teaching and doctrine, then they also arrogantly think that people aren't saved as well. So go figure that one.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,296 posts, read 20,040,776 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Reactions such as the ones above, demonstrate the hardness of heart, the total resistance to, and the defiance and rejection of Scripturally revealed truth. It is the Scriptures which, being the written word of God, record and reveal the condition for salvation. That condition is to believe in Jesus Christ. The true Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ of the Bible. The true Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person forever. To deny His deity is to deny Christ. Those who do so remain under the eternal condemnation with which they were born into the world.

Truth is always resented by those who oppose it. Truth is always attacked by Satan who is the father of lies. Those who reject the truth leave themselves vulnerable to Satanic deception. And the more the truth is rejected when it is presented, the more tightly locked into negitive volition become those who oppose it.

The issue is not the messenger, but rather, the message. The Scriptures have been given. The case has been made. The truth has been presented. Those who profess to believe in Jesus Christ and yet deny His deity, do not know Him at all, and He does not know them. Such people, if they do not come to a realization of the truth before they depart from this life, will find themselves first in 'torments' in hades, and ultimately in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:11-15).

The believer in Christ is an ambassador for Christ here in the devils world, and has the responsibility to present the truth to a lost and dying world. It is not his responsibility to convince anyone. Only to present the truth. Some will listen. Many will not. Those who will not listen to, and believe the Gospel, will be eternally separated from God.
Mike you are deluded .

You right about one thing it's not our place to convince , that's the Holy Spirits work , it's a shame that you do not believe this yourself because with zealousness you are doing your best to convince us of your church doctrines , the latest being the trinity doctrine.


Jesus never was teaching about being being deceived by doctrine , His message and doctrine was love, the deception to ourselves is not being in error over doctrine (especially church doctrine) but the error of not loving your neighbor as yourself . I suggest you read the beatitudes.

If we abide in His love we will be practising justice, mercy and faithfulness and not neglecting the latter . You make your church doctrine way more important than that which is really important.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matt 23
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:47 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,379,125 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Reactions such as the ones above, demonstrate the hardness of heart, the total resistance to, and the defiance and rejection of Scripturally revealed truth.
I would not say it is the hardness of heart, if one is seeking out God. In fact, I would rather say they are the ones who most earnestly are seeking Him which is Truth. Are you going to know deny the LOVE they have for the Father, or to the Son? The Son promised to reveal Truth to those who seek. We are called to reason with Him. "COME, Let us reason together".

Isa 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


Luk 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.


Act 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

So you say Mike, that whoever seeks after the Lord and HIS TRUTH, is damned? Nice, as that makes YOU the judge, jury, and executioner.


Quote:
It is the Scriptures which, being the written word of God, record and reveal the condition for salvation.
Which scriptures are those Mike? I used KJV up above. Normally I use NASB. Some use Young's Literal. Some read the ancient languages. So, which version are we talking about? The Bible is a GUIDE, to FIND the PATH, to Him, who is our Creator. Yes, it is inspired, as we can all agree. But some are letters, some secondhand gospels, and some just plain ol history. Either way, it is all the Key to the Kingdom, as Jesus plainly stated.




Quote:
That condition is to believe in Jesus Christ.
You don't think anyone knows this? Really? You don't think thhat at some point, EVERYONE will know this?

Quote:
The true Jesus Christ.
Is there another?

Quote:
The Jesus Christ of the Bible.
What about the Jesus Christ of ALL? Is He not the King of ALL kings? Is He not the Lord of ALL lords? Doesn't His authority transcend ALL?

Quote:
The true Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person forever.
Does anyone doubt that Jesus was an empty vessel filled with the Father? I really don't anyone is doubting this.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

A few questions from this passage for you Mike. Jesus was MADE in the likeness of men? Jesus was found? Who exalted Him? Who bestowed the name above ALL names? Do you have any clue what it means TO NAME someone? It means you have authority OVER them. Is the Father OVER Jesus? It says He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. So, He did not even regard it? IOW, never even thought about it? Wow.



Quote:
To deny His deity is to deny Christ.
To deny His humanity, is anti-Christ:

2Jo 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Christ IS Deity, Jesus was a man. This is the equation you are missing. Otherwise MAN KILLED GOD THE FATHER, which has been plainly stated to those who refuse to see.

Quote:
Those who do so remain under the eternal condemnation with which they were born into the world.
We are ALL born unto condemnation. Jesus told us the Way. How about we follow our Shepherd where He leads, and not webites written by men.

Quote:
Truth is always resented by those who oppose it.
Are you sure yours is the Truth? The ONLY Truth? You refuse to even consider the questions set forth by many. So those people are are ALL blind, except for you?

Quote:
Truth is always attacked by Satan who is the father of lies.
And he also masquerades as a Light Bearer. Be careful who you follow brother.

Quote:
Those who reject the truth leave themselves vulnerable to Satanic deception.
No, those who reject Jesus and His Father's GIVEN authority leave themselves vulnerable, period.

Quote:
And the more the truth is rejected when it is presented, the more tightly locked into negitive volition become those who oppose it.
As we ALL here can tell. How many posts reflect the Love of the Father written by you?

Quote:
The issue is not the messenger, but rather, the message. The Scriptures have been given. The case has been made. The truth has been presented.
Sounds aweful lawyerish. Careful, lest you bind up keys.

Quote:
Those who profess to believe in Jesus Christ and yet deny His deity, do not know Him at all, and He does not know them. Such people, if they do not come to a realization of the truth before they depart from this life, will find themselves first in 'torments' in hades, and ultimately in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:11-15).
Nice. Don't come to the Father, nor to the Son, except out of fear.
Where is the Love? God, whomever you apply this TITLE to, if it is NOT LOVE ABSOLUTELY, is NOT from the Father.

Quote:
The believer in Christ is an ambassador for Christ here in the devils world, and has the responsibility to present the truth to a lost and dying world.
Well, my repsonse to this, is to first be a disciple, or a student. Even the disciples were not understanding everything, and they had Jesus as a teacher in the flesh. So we are to take the words of man to appoint others? I will pass and wait for a revelation FROM Him to be His ambassador, since it will be Him speaking, and NOT me. Otherwise, blasphemy comes into play when using man's words, in place of His.

Quote:
It is not his responsibility to convince anyone.
It is also NOT his responsibility to even preach, unless they are SENT.

Quote:
Only to present the truth.
Better learn it first, then.

Quote:
Some will listen. Many will not. Those who will not listen to, and believe the Gospel, will be eternally separated from God.
Believe the Gospel? Present it in Love then, and explain it to ALL of us to 'hear', Mike. Your posts lack love in them, which I didn't see Jesus doing when He presented it.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:49 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,379,125 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
It is arrogant for anyone to say who is or is not saved. But, again, many religions teach that if you are not under their umbrella of their teaching and doctrine, then they also arrogantly think that people aren't saved as well. So go figure that one.
It is easy to figure. They want sheeple, so they can exploit their labors and the fruits of said labors. It is all a means of control. The church has it, and they want to rule over the Church.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:51 AM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
It is arrogant for anyone to say who is or is not saved. But, again, many religions teach that if you are not under their umbrella of their teaching and doctrine, then they also arrogantly think that people aren't saved as well. So go figure that one.
No. To merely point out the principle is not arrogant. Anyone who does not believe in Christ is not saved. Anyone who does not recognize the deity of Christ does not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and is not saved. The Scriptures are clear on this. Of course many of those who don't believe in His deity are going to take exception when the principle is presented. That is only to be expected. I am simply presenting the truth that is set forth in the word of God. Some will listen. Others will not.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:33 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,725,643 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. To merely point out the principle is not arrogant. Anyone who does not believe in Christ is not saved. Anyone who does not recognize the deity of Christ does not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and is not saved. The Scriptures are clear on this. Of course many of those who don't believe in His deity are going to take exception when the principle is presented. That is only to be expected. I am simply presenting the truth that is set forth in the word of God. Some will listen. Others will not.
If it was, there would be no need for threads like this or world-shaking ancient church councils to decide what was what and what wasn't.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:46 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,379,125 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
If it was, there would be no need for threads like this or world-shaking ancient church councils to decide what was what and what wasn't.
So true. And 20,000 divisions, with millions of teachers all teaching differing principles.
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
290 posts, read 332,681 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Believe the words of Christ: "I am the door." (John 10)

There is no other name by which men can be saved. (Acts 4:12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Reactions such as the ones above, demonstrate the hardness of heart, the total resistance to, and the defiance and rejection of Scripturally revealed truth. It is the Scriptures which, being the written word of God, record and reveal the condition for salvation. That condition is to believe in Jesus Christ. The true Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ of the Bible. The true Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person forever. To deny His deity is to deny Christ. Those who do so remain under the eternal condemnation with which they were born into the world.

Truth is always resented by those who oppose it. Truth is always attacked by Satan who is the father of lies. Those who reject the truth leave themselves vulnerable to Satanic deception. And the more the truth is rejected when it is presented, the more tightly locked into negitive volition become those who oppose it.

The issue is not the messenger, but rather, the message. The Scriptures have been given. The case has been made. The truth has been presented. Those who profess to believe in Jesus Christ and yet deny His deity, do not know Him at all, and He does not know them. Such people, if they do not come to a realization of the truth before they depart from this life, will find themselves first in 'torments' in hades, and ultimately in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:11-15).

The believer in Christ is an ambassador for Christ here in the devils world, and has the responsibility to present the truth to a lost and dying world. It is not his responsibility to convince anyone. Only to present the truth. Some will listen. Many will not. Those who will not listen to, and believe the Gospel, will be eternally separated from God.
"Whoever is not against us is for us. I assure you that anyone who gives you a drink of water because you belong to me will certainly receive his reward." (Mark 9: 40-41, Luke: 40-42) Jesus does not say giver, and therefore the rewarded, must be a follower himself.

The parable of the mustard seed shows the Kingdom of God is open to everyone - "...the birds come and make their nests in its shade"

Jesus healed the gentile in A Woman's Faith (Matthew 15: 21-28, Mark 7: 24-30). If Jesus healed a non-Jew, why would God not accept a non-Christian?

"Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do". From this I understand that regardless of a belief in Jesus as the Son of God, as long as one follows God's Law, one will be saved.

We have all used the Bible to support our arguments. Who is to say which of them is the true message?
Thank you for such an interesting conversation!!
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,295,475 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet you miss the whole part about him being the Messiah who EXPLAINS everything. Carries the WORD of God... God's message.
Exegesis?

Quote:
So clear that the Jews didn't expect the Messiah to be God? Do you really think she thought she was addressing God? Hardly.
The OT scriptures detailed this, but many Jews, did not understand this.
The language Christ used for Himself, was only that of God....hence the charge for His execution.

Quote:
Mighty God could also be translated as "Powerful One" and you still have the problem with Jesus being the Everlasting Father.. Is Jesus (the son) also the everlasting father? You have it all wrong.
No I don't. You do. The above is a quick denial of the text, but in reality, it usurps your premise entirely. Again, you are showing the inability to discern context and grammar of the text.

Quote:
And the culture was AGAINST there being any other number but 1 when it came to God. Not 3 in 1... The OT is clear that the Hebrews believed that God was too big to be housed on earth. God fills the heavens and earth.
Yet the scriptures again are clear who the suffering servant is...and that is God. You have it all wrong.

Quote:
It is the same with trinitarians claiming that "I AM" is the proper name or any name of God.. Yet the ones who read the bible and wrote it didn't believe that at all!
Exegesis? Prove it that they didn't. I am, is the phrase the Jews fully understood....their freedom was sourced from this very term, and was put into action. One of the top greatest events in their history, and Christ claimed that very title. You deny the obvious. Again, you show your inability to discern the scriptures.

Quote:
This doctrine states that God came down as a human thus splitting himself in two. He gives his spirit to himself thus splitting himself into 3. Then God by God's power in the human body is able to take on sin (being God he couldn't but that is his human side ) and sacrifice himself to himself.
My God can do anything, and the scriptrues prove He did just that, from the beginning to end. Just because many "apostate" Jews didn't see this, proves to me, that the Holy Ghost doesn't reside in you, as it didn't for them, or else, they and you, could see this clearly.

This whole issue people like you have, is more witness to the doctrine of ELECTION, as it was when Jesus spoke in parables, to this day with folks like yourself that don't accept Christ as God in the Flesh. Then only "many" were chosen, as it is today.

You cannot call yourself a Christian IMO unless you follow ALL the teachings of Christ, which include His deity claims, and until you surrender completely to His will, will there then be regeneration. Otherwise, those who hold to this doctrine, fall short of the faith.

Quote:
How in the world can that make any sense?
Through faith and submission.
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Old 05-31-2010, 03:25 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,575,706 times
Reputation: 4463
For humans to try to separate the Father from the Son is like trying to cut water with a butter knife.
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