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Old 07-14-2007, 04:03 PM
 
8 posts, read 23,339 times
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I came across this blog by accident - this will actually be my first blog.
Truth, I think is what everyone is after - without judgment or sarcasm. What is true about both Catholicism and Born Again/Protestantism: (1) both believe in the trinity; (2) both believe in Christ as the saviour and Son of the one true God.
Thereafter, however, the two diverge.
The Catholic Church along with the Greek, Russian, and Coptic Orthodox Churches worship, pray to, or seek the intercession of saints, angels, arch-angels, and Christ's Earthly mother, Mary.
This distinction and many others with roots in the inquisition periods, such as (1) praying for the souls of the dead so that they escape purgatory, (2) praying to or idolizing religious relics, such as the blood from the cross, the true cross, the robe of Christ, Veronica's Veil...etc. all go against the word of God as recorded in the Bible. A simple reading of the Bible would reveal that many of these religious practices actually defy what Jesus, the prophets, and the disciples testified and/or wrote about.
In sum, it is God we should serve and worship through his Son. That simple. Michael, Gabriel, Rafael, Uriel, and even Satnael are (though one chose not to be) servants of God, worshiping and serving him. Mary and the saints also chose to serve God and become vehicles of his will. Praying to them I believe gives them a place they neither desire or welcome. I wonder how Mary or angels tremble as millions kneel and pray in their name for even angels and men have commanded in scripture - worship him only!
Believe I do not question that Mary was blessed among women (not among God and the Son and the Holy Spirit) and angels are mighty warriors, servants, and protectors. Nevertheless, they are who they are BUT, HE IS WHO HE IS! And no one else is like HIM.
In scripture only one accepted men's worship: God and Christ the Son of God. Wether you call yourself Catholic or Protestant, I don't think God gives a hoot.
To whom do you pray? Whom do you worship? And in between this prayer and worship how do you love others? The answer to these question will let you know whether you know God or whether you have missed him somehow.
I pray that all of us learn and live in the word, encouraging one another and not judging and bringing our faith from custom to an ever pegging ladder that reaches from Earth to the Kingdom of Heaven. That ladder is Christ, without question, without doubt.
May God help our faith and belief.
All the best from Addis Ababa.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:28 PM
 
7,100 posts, read 22,576,807 times
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Did I miss something? Wasn't Martin Luther considered the beginning of the Protestant Movement? wouldn't his translation of the Latin Bible used in the Catholic Church, be the first Protestant Bible?

Before Luther, it was mainly the Roman Catholic Church. Because Jesus singled out Peter and said something about "Upon the Rock I will build my Church" and Peter became the first Bishop of Rome.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:03 AM
 
8 posts, read 23,339 times
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Martin Luther (a Catholic monk at the time) led the protestant movement and ceded from the Catholic church in order to veer back to the word of God - back to scripture - as it was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, and under Luther's time in German. According to the Catholic Church, one of Luther's greatest sins was translating the bible into German so that all people and not just the leity could read and understand and follow God's word instead of limiting the path to God through priests, cardinals, popes.
In short, the bible translated from Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek into Latin and later into German and English are all bibles of the one true God. There is no such thing as a protestant bible or a catholic bible - there is the word of God. True beleivers existed before Martin Luther - he gave them a voice of reform and protest (which is why we refer to him as a protestant) because the Catholic church had become the major representative of God's kingdom, and it had veered horribly from God's word. There technically is no protestant bible, for it, the bible, is older than Luther and the Catholic church. He just tried to make that bible accessible to the public. In addition, Luther would have wanted to reform the Catholic church, if indeed that seemed possible, rather than be forced divide and cede away from it (N.B. he was excommunicated by the church).

As for Peter, I don't think he became a bishop of Rome because best guesses and scholarly opinion are that he was killed or died while Nero was emperor of Rome (during the great persecution of Christians). Catholics believe he was crucified upside down. I don't know what became of him. Maybe the Catholic church made him a bishop after his death and that is what you are referring to.

In sum, however, I was not too clear on what part of my previous posting padgett 2 was responding to. Maybe you were not replying to me. If you were, may I ask you, with all humility, to clarify the point you are making?
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:01 AM
 
194 posts, read 884,475 times
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I grew up in a strictly catholic country, in a strictly catholic family and I know about the catholic teachings. I just don't understand how someone studies the Bible and still doesn't see that so many of their teechings are false. I'm just sorry for those people and my heart cries out for them. Vatican, the pope and the whole institution is unbelivible. If I offended anyone I'm sorry, but I had to say it.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:07 AM
 
7,100 posts, read 22,576,807 times
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Default Mikael

I should have made myself more clear. The original early postings were discussing who changed the Ten Commandments FIRST. Someone said that the Protestant Bible was older and therefore had the original list.

Since Martin Luther is given credit for starting the Protestant Movement, I was trying to find out what Bible would have been called Protestant before his time.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:29 AM
 
Location: Austin Texas
668 posts, read 422,629 times
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The bible before the heathen "Constantivs" summoned "the council of Nicea, which picked, choosed, tossed out, and altered many books of the original Bible. What we have now has great things in it, but it cannot be considered the absolute word of God. They translated it many times since then as well.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:28 AM
 
8 posts, read 23,339 times
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God's will is greater than men's councils. God's spirit will work no matter what our circumstances, and even an ass/donkey will speak if God so wills it. (Numbers 22).
No matter how the word got into its present form I have to believe that it came about according to his will. And I know without doubt everything in it is true.
Even if pagans tried to alter it, God's will wins out. That is the beauty of our God, he is perfect and so are his ways - even if to a scholarly and rational mind his ways seem to overwhelm and overawe. Imagine, would it be your best plan to save another's life by giving up the life of your only Son? Yet, his plan outwitted the devil, the pharissees, and even all of the disciples - no one really percieved what was happening until it really happened.
Same is true with the bible - its truth has withstood the test of time and the machinations of men. No council and no man controlled God's will, whatever happened to get that bible in your hands was no accident or manipulations.
We should not get bogged down with distractions but get down to basics - with faith and with honor and worship our God, through his word; and in turn honor and love each other as he has commanded. Everything else is surplusage and serves only to divide God's children (catholic, orthodox, or otherwise). And I also know this for sure; no matter what our curiousity or questions - God can and will satisfy them if we ask him to do so with an open heart. If it is important to us it is so to him.
So I would suggest you ask God about the bible and I assure he will satisfy your curiousity and he may do so through something irational...like through the mouth of an ass maybe?
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Warwick, NY
1,172 posts, read 5,234,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikael View Post
God's will is greater than men's councils. God's spirit will work no matter what our circumstances, and even an ass/donkey will speak if God so wills it. (Numbers 22).
That explains so much about our current president and congress.

Quote:
No matter how the word got into its present form I have to believe that it came about according to his will. And I know without doubt everything in it is true.
Quote:
Same is true with the bible - its truth has withstood the test of time and the machinations of men. No council and no man controlled God's will, whatever happened to get that bible in your hands was no accident or manipulations.
Then two issues here. First, we know that councils of men did alter the Bible by selectively choosing what testaments were to be included or excluded.

Second, are you saying that the men who chose these books were deprived of their free will to choose what books would stay and which would go?

As you can see here, not all sects or denominations agree as to what books should be included even now. Some, or all, could be wrong and plenty of books were just plain excluded; some for what appear to be valid reasons, others for less obvious and more controversial reasons.

My tendency is to not put my faith in the actions of men who have placed themselves in the role of God's gatekeepers but to use all available resources to explore and enrich my relationship with God and decide for myself what to accept and reject. As I see it, God gave nearly all of us the unique power of complex reasoning and higher-order thinking, not just church leaders; some of whom were given their positions as political favors or because their pockets were deep or they were relations or friends of the politically powerful.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:53 PM
 
8 posts, read 23,339 times
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Then two issues here. First, we know that councils of men did alter the Bible by selectively choosing what testaments were to be included or excluded.

Second, are you saying that the men who chose these books were deprived of their free will to choose what books would stay and which would go?

As you can see here, not all sects or denominations agree as to what books should be included even now. Some, or all, could be wrong and plenty of books were just plain excluded; some for what appear to be valid reasons, others for less obvious and more controversial reasons.

My tendency is to not put my faith in the actions of men who have placed themselves in the role of God's gatekeepers but to use all available resources to explore and enrich my relationship with God and decide for myself what to accept and reject. As I see it, God gave nearly all of us the unique power of complex reasoning and higher-order thinking, not just church leaders; some of whom were given their positions as political favors or because their pockets were deep or they were relations or friends of the politically powerful.[/quote]

Your first issue:
(1) Whether certain 'testaments' were not included does not 'alter' the word of God...all of the Gospels and the rest of the new testament scriptures are 100% consistent with old testament scripture and prophesy. So why would pagans choose to include those testaments that verify the accuracy and veracity of God's written word.
(2) Can you be sure what those ancient men and women's motivations were for compiling the word of God? In fact, can you be sure that the holy spirit was the entity in control of the situation - not to alter men's free will but to guide it; and, more importantly, we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
(3) Can you be sure that whatever other writings were 'excluded' are authentic products of a holy spirit driven author(s). Can you be sure that these other writings are authentic accounts untarnished by false witnesses or interpretations.
(4) Have these excluded writings served to change the course of human history; to change the lives of those who give their lives to Christ? For that is how you can tell the difference between a mere word and God's word.
(5) Let me ask you a personal question, has your experience with the Bible as it is left you unsatisfied with your understanding of God, his promises and his sacrifice? If not, then why are these other diversions so important to you?
(6) Have you read any of the other accounts/testaments? If so, what do they say to you and what do they teach you in your walk with God?
Second Issue:
(1) Recall what Christ said to Pilate's proclamation of power over the Son of God: "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above..."
So even if the man who crucified Christ had no actual power over the Son of God, how would a council of men have power over God and his Son's word?
It is not a question of free will but God's will. All manner of evil men may act against the word of God or his children, but their actions backfire on them - for example:
1) Joseph's brothers sought to rid Joseph from their family - they sold him off into slavery and lied to Jacob regarding Joseph's whereabouts. They intended one thing, and used thier free will and went against God's teachings in order to bring their plans into fruition. But God used this circumstance and Joseph to save not just oen family but the twelve tribes of Israel from starvation and death.
2) Evil sought to kill the Son of God, beleiving in death would be the end of Christ's work. And men acted on their free will and spilled innocent blood. But God used this circumstance to save the world.
How much easier would it be to deal with a small council in some corner of this Earth. God is an active not idle God. He saves, and rushes to protect the promises he made to us his children. However, miraculously or simply through the prayer of some pious man or women the work of this council may have been thwarted. Think about it, after sacrificing his Son for the sake of mankind, would God then forfeit so easily his word?

I guess, ultimately it is a personal decision we all have to make to trust in and give our lives completely to God. Like I said in an earlier thread, we can ask God these questions regarding other testaments or writings and his spirit will surely answer.
And in making this personal decision, would you bet your soul that these other writings contain the true and at work word of God? Speaking for myself I hang my life and my soul that the bible in my hand is His word, for it has and continues to transform my life and others near and far from me.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:06 PM
 
8 posts, read 23,339 times
Reputation: 16
BTW, regarding your comment on Congress and the President of the U.S. I have to say that we now live in a society that feeds us information in a mocking and scoffing manner. Look at the success of shows like the one presented by Jon Stewart. Shows and views like that are actually becoming the source of the short-attentioned public's opinion.
It is really easy to make fun of leaders and politicians, but God's untainted command is that we pray for them - that they learn from their mistakes, that they make better decisions, and that they lead with a moral and patriotic compass. And that seems harder than the first, and seemingly more popular alternative.
I truly believe that from this mouth of mine flow the words of life or of death. Notice in Gen. 1 it says, "in the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth." And in John 1 it says, "in the beginning was the word." God goes on to breath life into Adam. And this breath that lives in me I take for granted; and words I speak, I do so without paying no mind to them. Words of life and of death can spring from my mouth; and I try without success at times to remember that.
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