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[quote=Oleg Bach;30017121]Graven image - means a carved image. The worship of statues is not permitted...Whether it be Mary of Christ...There worst breach was that of not following the socialistic agenda set up by Christ...to para phrase.."Sell your property and put the money into a common purse..then - LET THOSE COME AND TAKE AS NEEDED" - Well the Catholic church did collect up a huge common purse over the centuries and have lived up to HALF of this contract...You can give to the church but you can NOT come and take as needed...They hoard the wealth.[/quo
Catholics do not worship statues, but you just go on believeing that absurd notion.
If Jesus asks anyone, why should I let you in the Kingdom and reads out the verses I listed, what can they say if they lived those lifestyles and knew what the scriptures said against living like that.
Again, not what we were talking about. We were discussing people who have been saved and who live a lifestyle that is far from Christlike, but whom you said would still be in Heaven.
There you go again. Your focus is on the obedience of man when it should be on the obedience of Christ! (Romans 5:19)
Don't confuse the possessors with the professors. If someone claims to be saved yet turn to a lifestyle of sin without regret, remorse, accusation and shame then they were never saved to begin with.
This is what i was referring to as well. The large amount of Christians that were saved at a early age or whatever age, did everything a saved person would do and had a great testimony to back it, and no one would question if they are saved. But later on, something happens in their life and they walk away from the church, became a muslim or atheist, or start cheating on their spouse, turned to the gay lifestyle, or many other examples that are a clear No in bible, but they will be in heaven in the end despite the lifestyle they lived when they turned from God.
If Jesus asks anyone, why should I let you in the Kingdom and reads out the verses I listed, what can they say if they lived those lifestyles and knew what the scriptures said against living like that.
I believe Jesus would say, "You are here because I obeyed. It was never your obedience that saved you, but mine." Jesus' righteousness is greater than Adam's sin. (Romans 5:19) Why does God do it this way? Because Jesus gets all the glory, and men get none. Grace glorifies God. Pride glorifies man.
There you go again. Your focus is on the obedience of man when it should be on the obedience of Christ! (Romans 5:19)
Don't confuse the possessors with the professors. If someone claims to be saved yet turn to a lifestyle of sin without regret, remorse, accusation and shame then they were never saved to begin with.
And there you go. They thought they were. There goes assurance of salvation.
Oh, by the way, I watched that video from which you extracted that "obedience of Christ" thing, and I was no more impressed by his rhetorical maneuvers than I was by his sophistry.
In response to "If someone claims to be saved yet turn to a lifestyle of sin without regret, remorse, accusation and shame then they were never saved to begin with."
What we have been trying to get at is not the matter of works being required to save you, but the amount of Christians that are clearly saved and have been for a while, but they just stray away and some never come back to living the way God requires of his saints.
So if the bible says to be saved you must:Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
How does one ever know they are saved then? Romans says all you have to do is confess and believe and you are saved, but the rest of the NT, shows what happens to you if you live certain lifestyles.
Hebrews 10:26-29
The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
This shows not to take grace for advantage. Because if you do chose to live these lifestyles after you are saved the bible makes it clear.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
So romans519, you are clearly saved right now and none of us would question your salvation if you died tonight, but if you decided tomorrow that you are going to becoming a serial murder, a bank robber and a atheist, the bible makes it clear what your outcome will be in the end.
The bible speaks about being lukewarm in that Jesus will spit you out his mouth.
And there you go. They thought they were. There goes assurance of salvation.
Oh, by the way, I watched that video from which you extracted that "obedience of Christ" thing, and I was no more impressed by his rhetorical maneuvers than I was by his sophistry.
If you're referring to professors of salvation (people who were not born again and only said they believe to make them look better) then I don't know what were debating about.
I "extracted" the obedience of Christ from the gospel. Joseph Prince didn't write those words and neither did I. Don't push away his preaching because of me. He makes the effort to go into the context of the gospel. He preaches the gospel Paul preached and Paul received the same rejection you are giving him and me. That should say something to you. You would rather hold on to your obedience than Jesus' obedience to ensure your righteousness before God but there is no such thing. When you believe that you are righteous because Jesus obeyed (Romans 5:19) then you will see holiness manifest in the life of a believer. People try to do right because it sounds like the right thing to do just to find their self being depressed again because they didn't live up to God's standard. But when people see the truth that they are righteous because Jesus obeyed then holiness happens without you even realizing it.
In response to "If someone claims to be saved yet turn to a lifestyle of sin without regret, remorse, accusation and shame then they were never saved to begin with."
What we have been trying to get at is not the matter of works being required to save you, but the amount of Christians that are clearly saved and have been for a while, but they just stray away and some never come back to living the way God requires of his saints.
So if the bible says to be saved you must:Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
How does one ever know they are saved then? Romans says all you have to do is confess and believe and you are saved, but the rest of the NT, shows what happens to you if you live certain lifestyles.
Hebrews 10:26-29
The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
This shows not to take grace for advantage. Because if you do chose to live these lifestyles after you are saved the bible makes it clear.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
So romans519, you are clearly saved right now and none of us would question your salvation if you died tonight, but if you decided tomorrow that you are going to becoming a serial murder, a bank robber and a atheist, the bible makes it clear what your outcome will be in the end.
The bible speaks about being lukewarm in that Jesus will spit you out his mouth.
If you do not believe in Jesus then you already are everything Revelations 21:8 says will not inherit the Kingdom. Jesus said if you break one law you've broken them all. Those who believe in Jesus are none of those things. Why? Because Jesus is none of those things and as just as He is so are we in this world. Everything you keep saying is making sin greater than the blood of Jesus. What part of you being righteous because Jesus obeyed don't you understand? When you believe that, then it will produce right living in your life. But if you want to go back to religious beliefs and not believe that Jesus' blood has made you eternally saved and righteous in the eyes of God then you cannot believe that you are righteous because Jesus obeyed.
I have already explained Hebrews 10:26. You can find my recent posts and read it for yourself if you want. The bible says we have died to sin. Not the behavior and influence of sin but the IMPUTATION of sin. If you're saved you still have the ability to sin but your new heart guides you to do what is right and makes you feel guilty when you do wrong. Rest in the finished work and the life God wants us to live happens naturally. But if you trust in yourself to do what is right even after the bible says in our flesh dwells no good thing, then you will find yourself turning more and more religious and placing pride above grace because pride makes you feel more saved but grace puts us all on equal ground. No believer is more or less saved than the next believer.
All you want to do is to argue and you are going out of your way to try to make people mad. You are either ignorant of the Bible or plain d****. You know what he and I meant and I am sick of reading posts that really make no sense like yours.
You do NOT believe or try to believe like the Apostles at all and that is proven by your posts.
Graven image - means a carved image. The worship of statues is not permitted...Whether it be Mary of Christ...There worst breach was that of not following the socialistic agenda set up by Christ...to para phrase.."Sell your property and put the money into a common purse..then - LET THOSE COME AND TAKE AS NEEDED" - Well the Catholic church did collect up a huge common purse over the centuries and have lived up to HALF of this contract...You can give to the church but you can NOT come and take as needed...They hoard the wealth.[/quo
Catholics do not worship statues, but you just go on believeing that absurd notion.
Catholics have images that they pray too...who are you kidding? I lived across form this huge cathedral - at the time it stood in an open field and I resided in a farm house across the road...I would visit this church on occasion and could never get over the fact that they had this huge mosaic of MARY that was larger than the image of Jesus...Catholics are very pagan in their religious rituals and symbols...Maybe you don't actually worship an object...You have made Mary more important than Jesus....If you know your scripture you will remember that Mary the mother of Jesus thought her son had lost his mind and wanted to confine him.
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