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Old 07-05-2011, 10:16 AM
 
15,057 posts, read 7,568,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
God predestinated the evil actions of men . This is seen in the sacred record in the account of the Lords crucifixion !

Acts 2:23

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This passage doesn't say that it was predestined for men to crucify Jesus... only that it was predetermined that Jesus be sent/given to the world. Human beings were the ones who decided to take what was given and try to destroy it.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)

Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)

IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would choose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some choose Jesus, some say no thanks.

Discuss.
Predestination is often mis-understood.
Predestination comes from the omnipotent aspect of God. As an omnipotent God, he just knows who are\will be his and those who are\will not.

The error comes in human's limited ability ... humans reason that since God predestined some to heaven then the balance must have predestined to hell (Calvinism).

Scripture also teaches that humans did once have a freewill to chose...and they choose to rebel. Since then our only choice (by nature) is to remain enemies. That is what sin makes us as.

Though it appears to be contradictive...it is what it is. God gets the credit for faith coming to us, for us being able to become a child of God (before the creation) and those who reject him are held responsible\accountable.
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:20 PM
 
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ple:

Quote:
This passage doesn't say that it was predestined for men to crucify Jesus
Lol, it sure does not say they weren't !
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:52 AM
 
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Predestination (what the Bible teaches) and unconditional election (what Calvinism teaches are two completetly different things.

Predestination teaches that Jesus was chosen before creation to be the savior. Jesus is the elect one, the chosen one. Those who are in Christ are elect. Christians are elect.
,__
Unconditional election teaches that before God created anything, He chose those who would be saved and those who would be damned for all eternity. Man has no choice at all.

If the Calvinist are correct, why teach others? Why lead others to Christ? Why have a day of judgement? There are many many scriptures which refute this destructive doctrine. Time after time, we see examples of people in the Bible making a choice to follow God or not follow Him, beginning with Adam and Eve.

Calvinism makes God out to be a monster who would sentence a man to an eternity of suffering without ever having the chance to redeem himself.

Calvinism turns men into zombies or puppets.

God wants men to love and come to Him of their own free will.

Yes God is sovereign, and in His sovereignty gave man free will to choose Him or reject Him. He created us to be free moral agents who can choose to do right or wrong.

But make no mistake; God is in charge of the world. He appoints leaders. He causes nations to rise and fall. He will always accomplish His purposes whatever they may be.

Katie
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,578,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Predestination (what the Bible teaches) and unconditional election (what Calvinism teaches are two completetly different things.

Predestination teaches that Jesus was chosen before creation to be the savior. Jesus is the elect one, the chosen one. Those who are in Christ are elect. Christians are elect.
,__
Unconditional election teaches that before God created anything, He chose those who would be saved and those who would be damned for all eternity. Man has no choice at all.

If the Calvinist are correct, why teach others? Why lead others to Christ? Why have a day of judgement? There are many many scriptures which refute this destructive doctrine. Time after time, we see examples of people in the Bible making a choice to follow God or not follow Him, beginning with Adam and Eve.

Calvinism makes God out to be a monster who would sentence a man to an eternity of suffering without ever having the chance to redeem himself.

Calvinism turns men into zombies or puppets.

God wants men to love and come to Him of their own free will.

Yes God is sovereign, and in His sovereignty gave man free will to choose Him or reject Him. He created us to be free moral agents who can choose to do right or wrong.

But make no mistake; God is in charge of the world. He appoints leaders. He causes nations to rise and fall. He will always accomplish His purposes whatever they may be.

Katie

Katie, I agree with you (in part) - though I think you must also recognize God's sovereignty in the salvation process - that Jesus is the one who opens and shuts doors (and spiritual eyes). Without the Spirit of God moving, we are powerless. Salvation is of God - not of ourselves.

God's purposes will stand. No man can change that fact. We should rest in knowing that because God is good and He is love (pure love) and his mercy endures forever.

Peace -
Heartsong
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:44 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,422,899 times
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In endless debates...the truth about LOVE is lost.
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post

Katie, I agree with you (in part) - though I think you must also recognize God's sovereignty in the salvation process - that Jesus is the one who opens and shuts doors (and spiritual eyes). Without the Spirit of God moving, we are powerless. Salvation is of God - not of ourselves.

God's purposes will stand. No man can change that fact. We should rest in knowing that because God is good and He is love (pure love) and his mercy endures forever.

Peace -
Heartsong
God in His soveriegnty has given us free will to choose or reject Him. That is how it is! By grace you are saved through faith. But it is your choice whether to believe and obey Him or not; whether to accept His free gift of grace or not.

Katie
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:58 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,081,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
In endless debates...the truth about LOVE is lost.
The truth is lost to some. That is why there are endless debates.
Kate
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:00 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,051,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
The truth is lost to some. That is why there are endless debates.
Kate
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,578,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
In endless debates...the truth about LOVE is lost.
I think there are silent readers who are helped by discussions of important matters of faith. When a discussion devolves into viciousness and petty bickering, yes, it gets ugly and unpleasant. However, I think there are enough people who are hurting in silence about the skewed image of God that it is worth contending for the faith in his righteousness.

My 2 cents -
Heartsong
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